
A ferocious outpouring of emotion and dismay has consumed me and a group of my dearest friends this weekend, all of us women — lovers, mothers, sisters, daughters, girlfriends and wives from all different walks of life, income brackets, ages, countries and ethnic backgrounds.
The blog that brought us all together, Jezebel.com, is going through some growing pains, it would seem. A year ago the site helped pull me out of a pit of divorce-related depression that I feared I would not survive at times. It was hip, funny, irreverent, ballsy and — first and foremost — feminist. It railed fiercely and entertainingly at all the deserving sexist targets. It was a place where you could go to express outrage at the latest crimes being reported against women while a click later, you could be snarking on Madonna’s camel toe. And the commenters it soon attracted via other Gawker Media blogs were by and large witty, razor-sharp, sarcastic, silly and ridiculously bright feminists.
Jezebel filled a huge niche on the Web for a blog for and about women and women’s issues that was also unafraid to delve into our dual obsessions with celebrities and pop culture. No other site was doing it, and those early weeks were golden. But Jezebel got popular fast, and it changed in odd and perplexing ways.
First there was the startlingly visceral hatred towards the first woman to run for president, Hillary Clinton. Then there was a lackadaisical — some would say openly offensive — attitude about rape from a couple of the regular editors in some controversial posts. Not to mention the stunning lack of social responsibility in posts about sexual activities.
The young fans reading and apparently influenced by Jezebel seemed empowered by this allegedly revolutionary way of thinking: sleeping around indiscriminately is absolutely fine, don’t get too worried about your STD because it’s just a cold sore, pulling out is a really fun method of birth control and you won’t necessarily get pregnant by relying on it, and if you get raped it’s probably your fault because you either wanted it — even at the age of 13 — or you were too stupid to avoid it. And if you DID get raped, and it was just some guy who insisted on having sex with you even when you said no while you were both drunk, don’t raise a stink about it. It’s no biggie.
Oh, and by way, if you adhere to all these notions? You, my dear, are a FEMINIST!
I think this is where the site has lost me, as an old-time feminist who started marching in feminist rallies when she was in high school in the early 1980s. It hurts more than angers me to watch a younger generation of girls being schooled in this ridiculously false notion that “feminism” means you’ve got free reign to be spectacularly irresponsible, ill-informed and insensitive — and openly callous and rude to those who express disagreement — and to other women, to boot, including those who were personally and sincerely offended by what you’ve expressed.
I agree that feminism is a multi-headed beast and means different things to different women. But first-wave, third-wave, eighty-fifth wave, I think we can all agree on this: It’s about believing men and women are equal. It’s about wanting a society that gives women all of the same opportunities that men have. It’s about wanting to live in a world where women are not solely assessed on their looks and their sexual appeal. It’s about understanding and accepting how women have indeed been kept down, and continue to be kept down, and fighting for it to stop.
That means supporting other women when they’ve been raped. It means at least celebrating the historical milestone that saw a woman make a near-successful run for the White House, even if you think she ran a shitty campaign. It also means — if you write for such a popular site — understanding that your words and your opinions are powerful, so perhaps suggesting to young girls that pulling out is a “fun” method of birth control is not exactly ensuring these young women are heading into adulthood with some intelligence and with a sense of responsibility to those they’ll be associating with. It’s not anti-feminist to tell your young fans: Fuck whoever you want, but make sure you don’t end up in danger, or pregnant, or diseased while you’re doing it, because this is your chance to shine.
This recent public appearance, on Lizz Winstead’s Thinking & Drinking, by two popular Jezebel editors last week doesn’t anger me so much as it saddens and depresses me. Such a great opportunity wasted. I agree these two women didn’t ask to be “role models” for their generation — and I don’t believe they are — but the point is they COULD be. They have a forum now to challenge the establishment and really represent young modern-day feminists as I know them, both in my real life and among my online pals: smart, socially conscious, socially progressive, women-loving, liberal-minded, morally responsible, sex-loving, hot-blooded and astonishingly intelligent women. Women who still want to believe that Jezebel will once again reflect who they are.
July 6, 2008 at 3:54 pm
so well put.
i’ll be pouring out a drink in loving memory of what was, and what could have been.
im just glad i have all of you now.
July 6, 2008 at 3:55 pm
BRAVO!
Having unprotected sex is not a feminist act. The patriarchy is JUST DANDY with women not using condoms. Some people seem to think everything’s defensible if done under the banner of feminism. Calling yourself a feminist doesn’t inherently make you right, or virtuous, or even a feminist.
July 6, 2008 at 3:58 pm
Yup, the patriarchy is also quite fine with teenaged pregnancy, apparently, so sure! Use the withdrawl method! It’s not like young guys have any trouble controlling their orgasms!
July 6, 2008 at 4:11 pm
Excellently put, Trix!
It feels like Jezebel squandered an opportunity and it’s a shame.
I can think of dozens upon dozens of young women who live their feminism every day, and those are the real feminist role models.
July 6, 2008 at 4:16 pm
Blerg. I read the article and the quotes, but I can’t bring myself to watch the clips. I’m having a decent weekend; I’d like to keep it that way.
July 6, 2008 at 4:23 pm
If we’d handed out Feminist Cards, I feel that I’d be en route to NYC right now to revoke two of them.
Thankfully, I didn’t waste my $1.25 on laminating Official Feminist wallet-sized cards for anyone but myself.
July 6, 2008 at 4:26 pm
Well said, Trixie. I had the same response to Tracie and Moe’s appearance. Ugh. Mega-cringe.
They both need to walk around wearing a disclaimer that says “I’m just speaking for myself, not for Jezebel.” If they want to get drunk and spout off their own personal irresponsible bullshit, they can do it on their own time, not as representatives of the Jez community.
The good news is that we all were brought together by the site and we can all stick together regardless of the aforementioned drunky cringy bullshit. That’s what I’m planning to do. Hope y’all will still be around.
July 6, 2008 at 5:01 pm
This post perfectly expresses how I’ve been feeling about Jezebel lately. It’s bad enough that I’ve started checking the author before I click on a feature because there are a couple (like those noted in this post) who I just don’t want to support. And that interview made me ashamed that I even read over there. I stopped recommending it to others a while ago, and will probably stop admitting what I do read there.
July 6, 2008 at 5:01 pm
Once upon a time The Jez did appear to live within a framework of reason, integrity, and objectivity for women’s issues. Then somewhere along the line it started disolving into an abyss of personal opionion, bias, and very sadly some serious psychosocial issues for several of the editors.
The Jez is a potential laden vehicle now largely wasted on serving as some strange form of public confessional and group therapy….no thanks.
July 6, 2008 at 5:13 pm
We’re sticking around, Becky Sharper, as long as people read us.
You know, it’s not like I want it to fail. I so want that website to return to its former glory. Nothing would make me happier, and I was still defending it long after the tide began to turn. But I have just had too many “now hold on a second” moments over there lately. Really? This is modern feminism? It’s not, and I wish they’d stop defending their antics/writings under the banner of feminism.
July 6, 2008 at 5:41 pm
I hear you Trixie. I’ve been sad that so many commenters who I really enjoy and admire have recently quit Jezebel in disgust. But yeah, let’s hang in there.
And the whole “I’m a feminist because I say I am and you can’t tell me I’m not…lalalalala…notlistening” thing that Tracie is pulling just embarrasses her, not feminists in general.
July 6, 2008 at 6:03 pm
So, yeah. Can’t bring myself to watch the clips; could scarcely stand to read the transcripts or blogosphere commentary on Moe or Moe’s statements that night.
I’m not ready for my heart to break that way yet.
Breaking up is hard to do. How funny to think that all the once-felt pains of leaving an actual human being can be felt for a site that once brought so much pride, laughter and a feeling of finally being amongst truly feminist, fun, bombass women.
Oh, Jezebel, you’re not who I thought you were.
July 6, 2008 at 6:08 pm
@BeckySharper: OMG, Becky, you obviously don’t understand the ‘new wave’ of feminism. ‘New wave’ feminists don’t have to DO anything, they just ARE feminists, no matter what they do or say. Duh.
July 6, 2008 at 6:11 pm
Well said, my dear Trixie.
I tip my hat in a Northerly direction.
July 6, 2008 at 6:40 pm
I get (well, I don’t “get” but I’ve run into the notion) their brand of feminism lite. It’s the same tripe some of my coworkers and acquaintances spout off because they’re mostly sheltered, mostly affluent twentysomething women who don’t know (or refuse to know) anything outside of their own small spheres. For my acquaintances, I think it’s a form of head-in-sand; if they put much more than passing thought into the capped-letter subjects of rape or birth control or the patriarchy, they’d cease their ability to function.
What I don’t understand is how either Moe or Tracie could show up drunk and/or stoned without a minute of meta-awareness. I mean, seriously, a joke at my workplace is “will this show up on Gawker?” and Denton et. al. don’t take that many potshots at us, but to have Gawker employees pull that? Shocked and befuddled. They can’t really be that unawares, can they?
July 6, 2008 at 6:54 pm
brava, Trixie dear, well said!
..ten bucks says no-one gets fired.
July 6, 2008 at 7:00 pm
This whole thing is just sad. Jezebel used to be a great, significant part of my life. I used to tell the teenagers I mentor about it, and now I’m really embarrassed for having done so, and crossing my fingers that they didn’t bother to take my advice and check it out.
It’s just such an opportunity wasted. We had this great, amazing space, and bloggers like Tracie have turned it into something I am so, so adamantly against. What a waste.
July 6, 2008 at 7:01 pm
i totally agree. i’ve been reading the site since it was launched and have slowly become disillusioned with it.
First of all, Tracie banned HamburgerHotDog for saying she did not agree with the Polanski post. Then, in response to the outrage, Tracie wrote a post on her personal blog about how she would never allow herself to be censored. How ironic then, that Tracie effectively censored a strong commenter.
Not to mention that Tracie never fully understood why her readers were so upset by the post in the 1st place.
It is the editors disregard and disrespect of their readers that really irks me.
July 6, 2008 at 7:18 pm
@ktastic: Sorry, I was to busy demonstrating my commitment to “new wave feminism” by throwing out my condoms and chugging a fifth. What’d I miss?
July 6, 2008 at 7:23 pm
@kadinsky: Fired? As in “held accountable”? Perish the thought! Feminism means never having to say you’re sorry.
July 6, 2008 at 7:30 pm
Tracie and Moe are to feminism what George W. Bush is to patriotism: outrageous co-opters and rebranders of the lowest grade.
July 6, 2008 at 7:53 pm
@JustT: I am a woman, so everything I do is AUTOMATICALLY feminist. So if you criticize me, you’re criticizing feminism. Why do you hate feminism? Why do you hate women, JustT?
Feminism=never sorry.
July 6, 2008 at 8:20 pm
Well put Trix. Thank you for putting a viewpoint out there that doesn’t make my generation seem like a bunch of idiots.
July 6, 2008 at 9:16 pm
It is the editors disregard and disrespect of their readers that really irks me.
Amen, my friend. I remember the days when I couldn’t WAIT to read Jezebel…so many great posts, so many strong, witty, insightful commenters. Now I barely check in.
The aforementioned editors have no regard or repect for their readers. I call it being Emotionally Tone Deaf.
July 6, 2008 at 9:36 pm
“but you live through rape.”
What the hell. As a young jezebel reader I find this one of the most offensive comments I have ever heard! I usually try and defend people, but this is almost impossible to even find a logical reason behind this comment.
July 6, 2008 at 9:38 pm
Well, it was good while it lasted; Jezebel has jumped the shark, jumped the couch and nuked the fridge.
Also: I always knew something was off with Ms. Egan, not because of anything’s she done, but because she gave off this vibe that she just wasn’t all there, that she had parasitic tendencies. I thought I would give her a chance to prove me wrong…
Looks like I was right after all.
July 6, 2008 at 9:48 pm
@Cameron: I know, right? I guess we should have believed her straight up when she wrote about her self-curing herpes, because…..she’s like, SMART!
July 6, 2008 at 10:05 pm
@Kadinsky: Like, yeah, totally! I mean, like, she’s so supersmart and stuff that she, like, avoided rape by paying some, like, dude to rape her, but, like, totally failed at it.
Valtrex: Tastes like chicken if chicken was Valtrex.
July 6, 2008 at 10:11 pm
Very well said Trixie. I used to encourage my sisters and friends to check out the site, hoping they might broaden their viewpoints and think. Now I really hope that they don’t check it out, and they don’t believe that Jezebel is what feminism is.
@badenbaden: It was a great place, once. I remember reading for months before commenting. I was so worried that I would sound unintelligent or not witty enough. Now, it seems all you need to do is agree with editors that spout out damaging information and beliefs.
July 6, 2008 at 10:13 pm
Standing ovation here, Trix. Very eloquent and very true. I wonder if they think they’re being like Sex and the City, but instead, they’re just being morons?
Not sure if I want to stick around for the shitfest tomorrow. I’ll probably check it out, but I don’t know if I can comment a lot since 1) I’m sure there’s gonna be about 1,000 comments and 2) when there’s that many, my eyes and head start to hurt. Besides, I think we’ve distilled it pretty good without them, so I’m not sure what they could say to make it OK somehow.
July 6, 2008 at 10:29 pm
Maybe they’ll just ignore it and hopes it goes away, or deal with the situation off-site.
July 6, 2008 at 10:39 pm
@lalaland13
yeah, ive been turned off by the hundreds of “OMG I <3 you” and “Fuck the haters” comments. It really adds nothing to the conversation.
July 7, 2008 at 12:00 am
Shut up, Haterz. I am emulating Slut Machine’s bangs right now.
Feminism, fuck yeah!
July 7, 2008 at 12:08 am
Thank you Trixie, really well done –I’m so saddened and horrified by that show and the lack of response to it (or formally addressing it on jez), but even worse, not in the least bit surprized it happened. I’m a slut, and a feminist, and yet I can seem to figure out the concept of ‘no means no’ and was raped twice despite being pretty damned smart. I hope some sort of phoenix rises from the ashes of what has been a terrible downturn.
July 7, 2008 at 12:32 am
As someone who actually likes new wave music, I am offended by feminists applying the term “new wave” to their crap interpretation of what it is to be a feminist. How dare they!
EAT A BAG OF DICKS.
Now, excuse me while I go listen to some Soft Cell. On vinyl. Sob.
July 7, 2008 at 12:41 am
Word Trix. Word.
July 7, 2008 at 5:19 am
Trixie, brilliant. I’ve been grinding my teeth for the last week since I read about the Moe/Tracie fiasco. And I’ve been increasingly pissed off at how Jezebel has deteriorated in many ways over the last6-8 months. Cameron is right-Tracie does have “parasitic tendencies”. I think she’s got people cowed. She responds to any criticism with diatribe and insults. As for Moe, she’s so erratic in her writing and attitudes and opinions…between the Adderall and the drunk-blogging, it’s like reading Sybil’s diaries. And that’s a shame because I when she get’s it together, she writes really well.
I’m glad this is rippling through the blogosphere (Hez has posted some links to other people’s reactions on her Tumblr). This incident is just an extreme example of what’s going wrong at Jezebel. I think we’ve got a responsibility to make ourselves heard.
Oh, and by the way, guys, a lot of women over 40 read – and comment on – Jezebel. Can we drop the crap about first, second and third wave feminists? Meaningless in-fighting.
July 7, 2008 at 7:09 am
Oh, and that last comment: the “guys” addressed was a very general reference,not maning just the commenters here.
July 7, 2008 at 8:39 am
SarahHeartburn! I remember the good old days when you were a regular Jez commenter, and always so funny and smart. And then, understandably, you went away. Like so many have.
July 7, 2008 at 8:48 am
Very well said, Trixie.
I’m curious to see if Jezebel ever responds to this fiasco. Of course, it would likely just be a completely unapologetic post written by Moe and Tracie calling everyone who’s criticized them assholes.
It’s just so sad what that site has become.
July 7, 2008 at 9:02 am
Humourless old-wave feminists without a sense of humour, that’s what I’m guessing. Who were “assy” to dare criticize them. And that it was the organizers’ fault, who were also “assy.”
July 7, 2008 at 9:17 am
Where do I sign up?
July 7, 2008 at 9:18 am
Yeah I am BEYOND disappointed. This has been my major issue with jezebel from the beginning. They being called a “feminist site.” I have gotten shit for it and now I’m proved right. They are FAR FAR from feminists. That video was beyond disgusting. Not only did they BOTH come off like complete morons, they made me cringe at being a woman.
July 7, 2008 at 9:31 am
Thanks, Trix. You know, I’m kind of hoping that this will be a good thing for Jezebel and a wake-up call to the editors that they have to get their shit together.
Or, you know, things could just completely blow up. It could go either way.
July 7, 2008 at 9:38 am
I am sick and tired of all this censorship and denying my right of free speech. It is my right to comment on Jezebel, and keeping SM from writing her column is censorship.
I am a better feminist than allyall.
July 7, 2008 at 9:50 am
That was the most disgusting and sad thing I have ever seen. I used to love Jezebel, and even though I did not post regularly, I enjoyed talking with BangieB about the various topics and responses. Now I just feel appalled that it has slipped to this level. I just know that if I represented my employer that way in a public forum, I would not have a job for very long. I am not even talking about the topics they covered, but just the irresponsible way they were acting.
July 7, 2008 at 9:53 am
If they had been two newspaper columnists representing their publications, they would have been fired the next day. I’m not necessarily saying that SHOULD happen, but it would have happened to these two if they were employed by, say, the New York Times.
July 7, 2008 at 10:07 am
Can I use the withdrawal method with Jezebel?
July 7, 2008 at 10:24 am
@es-ki-mo: ha! it’s a gray area…
July 7, 2008 at 10:26 am
@Trixie It should happen. They were drunk at a media event where they were representing their employer, and spouted bullshit that’s completely at odds with their employer’s image and mission.
@BAngieB Darling, I know for a fact that I have slept with WAY more men than you. Therefore I am a better feminist and for you to say otherwise would be censorship. Not to mention “assy.”
July 7, 2008 at 10:32 am
@kandinsky: Would it help if I’m on quaaludes?
July 7, 2008 at 10:32 am
@BeckySharper: I think the fact that I don’t sleep with men makes me a better feminist, because I do not allow them to violate me. But I bet your bangs are better than mine, so there’s that.
July 7, 2008 at 10:41 am
@ BAngieB Yeah, since lesbians never use condoms, you’re probably a better feminist than me. Because as we all know, ditching the rubbers is the mark of a true 21st-century feminist.
July 7, 2008 at 10:48 am
Dear god. I forced myself to watch the clips finally, and now I think I’m going to go bang my head against a wall for a few hours. That was even worse than I expected.
July 7, 2008 at 10:48 am
I remember when I first started reading Jezebel, I was so very happy to find a site that was most like my own brand of feminism. I like snark, I like poking fun at celebrities (because, come on, they put themselves out there and if we can’t make fun of their fashion choices, well, that’s just facism) but I also like having serious and the once-in-a-while heated debates about the downright awful bullshit women have to go through. And I liked how we discussed all sorts of women, not just the middle-class bitchy broads like me.
Jezebel is no longer that, and it makes me sick to think of what it’s become. Also, the fact that my job blocked the damn site could not have come at a better time. I’ll stick with Gawker for now.
Also, Trixie, great post.
July 7, 2008 at 11:02 am
Well said Trixie, and you too BeckySharper
Like the rest of you I was thrilled when Jezebel first came on line, but in the last 5 months or so have watched it steadily deteriorate into something of a circus/girls gone wild atmosphere. After reading some of Moe’s incoherent and blatant Hilary hating on Crappy Hour I just stopped reading her posts period. They never make much sense anyhow. I stopped reading Tracie’s stuff when she started advertising the pullout method of birth control and took no responsibility for her STD. When they banned Sinroo I was completely pissed because they censored the very commenters that made them famous in the first place I’ve lost a lot of respect for Jezebel, they had so much potential and they’ve just squandered it. The best thing to come out of it was this blog here.
July 7, 2008 at 11:10 am
What a great post! I had Hortense ban me so I would not be tempted to comment. I could no longer support a site that employed SM. Also, a commenter informed me that I was to old to comment at Jez. I tend to agree with her now but I am too young for Wowowow so thanks for filling the void ladies.
July 7, 2008 at 11:29 am
@cate3710: Right? At first I thought, well, maybe if I see the clips I’ll understand better why they said what they said. Maybe, SOMEHOW, there was some shred of justification- the context, somehow?
Nope. I ended up just totally appalled and aghast.
July 7, 2008 at 11:47 am
I’m really heartened by the comments here. (Like SouthernComfort,I was chastized by a Jez commenter once, when I told Moe her writing was sloppy, that I was too old to understand her “creative” style. Fuck THAT noise.)I was beginning to wonder if I was the only one who found Slut Machine depressing to appalling.
Now I realize that the like-minded had just fled, like I had. You’ll be seeing more of me, compañeras.
July 7, 2008 at 12:05 pm
Let’s not forget you guys the GREAT Feminist writing that Megan does for the site. This shit gets to me really badly, too. She’s writing GREAT stuff…especially when she came back after Anna went on vacation. Her stuff has been THE SHIT. It’s been absolutely great. And this kind of crap makes HER and Dodai and the other writers look bad.
July 7, 2008 at 12:12 pm
@sinisterrouge: That’s true. It’s a shame the other staffers as Jezebel are getting screwed by this. This shouldn’t be any reflection on them, but it’s got to be upsetting.
July 7, 2008 at 12:12 pm
Thank you! I have avoided real life until this morning and was shocked at the callousness given to a discussion on rape. I have been on the fence about SM’s writing for awhile now since I see where she is coming from in the need to be honest, but I also see how obviously fearful she is in being judged so she blasts everyone who makes anything near a harsh comment on her. Lizz Winstead had to have been pretty pissed off to write such a piece for HUffPo and I think Dodai and Anna really need to reevaluate whats going on there. Megan’s writing, like Sin said, is well informed, incredibly well written and yet still has the bite. I have always found even her harshest criticism on HRC as at least coming from an intellectual side. I don’t want to be labeled a prude or out of touch cause I dont get why an adult woman in NYC who carries STDs, yet doesn’t warn her partners and laughs at the thought of men in Williamsburg being able to rape anyone because of their effeminate ways as wrong. I don’t care if SM sleeps with thousands of people a week, as long as she is being smart about it. Unprotected sex with strangers is possibly the most opposite thing to feminism. Ladies I think your blog might have to grab the reins from the likely fallout.
July 7, 2008 at 12:13 pm
@es-ki-mo: did you get them from China? obscure Chinese roofies are best for keeping the rape-y patriarchy from your goodies, such as.
July 7, 2008 at 12:13 pm
@ sinisterrouge: I COMPLETELY AGREE!!!
July 7, 2008 at 12:31 pm
Thank you for writing what I was trying to articulate in my head all weekend. I was such a fan at first, but I’ve become increasingly disillusioned with the site. I can almost see the snarky post the early Jezebel might write about the one that exists now.
I’ve come to see a real coldness about Tracie Egan. You can defend your opinions while still showing compassion and respect for others.
She and Moe have devolved into the pop culture feminist version of frat boys.
July 7, 2008 at 12:34 pm
@sinisterrouge: Megan’s stuff is generally awesome, as is Dodai’s. I’ll keep coming back for their posts, at least.
July 7, 2008 at 12:41 pm
@sinisterrouge: Don’t forget Jessica, I’ve really liked some of her posts.
July 7, 2008 at 12:50 pm
@SinRo: I agree with you. There is some great writing but the comments were a big draw for me as well. I do have Megan’s page bookmarked so I can read her posts but I have to stay away from the comments. They give me a headache.
I want to add that there are some great comments still being made there but they get drowned out, IMHO.
July 7, 2008 at 12:53 pm
Here’s a brilliant quote from somebody I just posted on my blog: ( http://cvxn.tumblr.com/post/41344070/these-women-are-shining-a-light-for-thousands-of )
“These women are shining a light for thousands of Midwestern teenagers who aspire to someday also move to Williamsburg and catch Chlamydia from an art fraud with an ironic mullet and big, plastic clown glasses.”
Follow the link from my blog to the MetaFilter round-up. It is seriously heating up there.
Nice work, Trix. And no, no one will be fired… unless they talk shit about Gawker Media. Nick loves controversy, and unless they bite the hand that feeds, they’ll stay employed for a long time. Sigh.
For the record, I read SM’s site before she was ever at Jezebel. I don’t want her to stop blogging, but I don’t think she’s right for that site. JMHO.
July 7, 2008 at 12:56 pm
@ ultraviolet “You can defend your opinions while still showing compassion and respect for others.”
Agreed. Especially as a writer since the “others” are your readers. An audience who seem to be getting younger and younger.
And it’s obvious that some of the readers DO look at the editors as a role models. So some semblance of responsibility for their words and actions would be nice.
July 7, 2008 at 12:58 pm
@ militia. “as role models” not “as a role models” jeeze.
July 7, 2008 at 1:00 pm
@Hez: I’m with you. I read Tracie as Slut Machine before she became a Jez regular and no matter my personal opinions on her behavior/activities/choice of fucksticks, if she wants to blog about it then blog away – but not on a site like Jez.
now, someone pay me mah 10 bucks.
July 7, 2008 at 1:00 pm
@ultraviolet:”pop culture feminist version of frat boys”= brilliant. You can come sit right here by me.
July 7, 2008 at 1:06 pm
@Hez: Apparently respectable, responsible blogging was of little interest to Gawker & Co., thus the decent into what The Jez is at this juncture. I say no thanks to anything from the Nick’s mediocre, dysfunctinal world.
July 7, 2008 at 1:07 pm
Kudos Trixie. I’m being echo chamber-y but I agree with SinRoo et al that Megan’s writing is outstanding and it’s a shame she’s stuck in the midst of the bullshit.
July 7, 2008 at 1:36 pm
The horrible truth about Jezebel is that it has devolved in much the same way that big groups of women do: “Either you’re with us, or you’re against us.” (It’s got kind of a G-Dub ring to it, eh?) It’s always about alpha females doing creepy, underhanded things to undermine the credibility of those who don’t conform to their ideas and then have them ousted from the group. Sororities, Girl Scouts, Women’s Auxiliary, or effing PTA, it’s the same all over.
They marched out with their feminism flags flying in the beginning — as in, respect for women and their choices, drop the judgment ticket on women who are operate differently than you and hell gals, we are all in this clusterfuck against the patriarchy together — and got tired of carrying that burden… but quick!
What I observed happen was a crumbling of a facade. Tracie and Moe aren’t feminists. They are using The Big F as a panacea for their guilt about their own self-destructive behaviors (unsafe sex practices, mixing prescription drugs and lots and lots of alkeeehol)to try to make them feel better about it. The only young girls in danger of following their example were at risk anyway, i.e., too dim-witted not to see the ridiculousness of what they say and do and seriously lacking important role models in their lives.
I haven’t checked in on that site in a long while, but I agree with the rest of you who have chimed in that they fooled themselves into believing that THEY were the reason Jezebel.com took off like a quasar and dismissed the commenters that brought their A-game. They are a lesson to the others in the blogosphere: Respect your following or your following will find someone else to follow.
July 7, 2008 at 1:48 pm
Oh, and also…
Viva La ButtercupPUNCH!
July 7, 2008 at 1:51 pm
@Paisley Pajamas: “What I observed happen was a crumbling of a facade. Tracie and Moe aren’t feminists. They are using The Big F as a panacea for their guilt about their own self-destructive behaviors (unsafe sex practices, mixing prescription drugs and lots and lots of alkeeehol)to try to make them feel better about it.”
Ding ding motherfucking DING. This is right the fuck on.
July 7, 2008 at 2:20 pm
Have y’all read this? I bet you’d like it: http://tomatonation.com/?p=677
And I agree with a lot of what’s been said, but not enough to give up on Jezebel. Fine Lines alone is worth sticking around for, and I’ve enjoyed Sadie’s posts about clothes immensely. I guess the trick is, as others have said, to watch for the bylines you like and avoid the ones you don’t. But this site, on which I’ve been lurking since I discovered it (around the time of SR’s ban) is quickly overtaking Jezebel in terms of the amount of time I devote to it. If only y’all posted as often as they do! (Especially the beauty tips posts.)
July 7, 2008 at 2:49 pm
I wish we did too, GirlScoutCookie! The trouble is all of us have full-time jobs so trying to keep this blog humming is difficult at times. But thanks so much for your kind words.
July 7, 2008 at 2:56 pm
@ katastic; Yay, the cool girls like me, you really like me.
I’m not that witty and I usually read these later in the day when it is too late to comment, but I read jezebel as much for sinroo, bangieb and the rest of you. It’s been a barren wasteland since you lot aren’t around as much anymore.
Any other tips on good alternative sites?
July 7, 2008 at 2:58 pm
@Paisley Pajamas. Oh, you are soooooo right on: “Tracie and Moe aren’t feminists. They are using The Big F as a panacea for their guilt about their own self-destructive behaviors (unsafe sex practices, mixing prescription drugs and lots and lots of alkeeehol)to try to make them feel better about it.”
All these posts are making me fall in love with y’all all over again. I’m with girlscoutcookie, though. I’m not ready to give up. I’m not ready to let a couple drunk, self-loathing dumbasses fuck up a good thing for the rest of us, esp. when Dodai and Megan and Sadie are all cranking out really good, thoughtful, comment-worthy work and we should support them even as we rant about SM and Moe.
July 7, 2008 at 3:03 pm
I’m not ready to give up either. I know it can return to how it was last summer but with a firm hand on the tiller. Anna just has to find the will and the strength to make it so.
July 7, 2008 at 3:15 pm
Thanks for this Trixie and the buttercups. Of course, it wasn’t discussed on Jez. Hopefully this will be a wake up call for Anna because I don’t want to see the writers I enjoy (Megan, Dodai, etc) suffer for these two’s actions.
July 7, 2008 at 3:16 pm
Agreed. Even though I have stopped reading Jez on a daily basis (and how odd that I once thought that would never happen) I know it is because my tolerance for the bullshit is much lower than so many of you. But there are still really good bloggers hard at work over there everyday and I know there must be a molecule of something worth saving for so many of the intelligent friends I have made to still take a peek during the week.
July 7, 2008 at 3:36 pm
@ BeckySharper …
Your post just reminded me: time to put Megan and Dodai on bookmark status. I just wish we could get RSS feeds for individual authors.
Also, I wish I were wittier, because y’all are some sharp fem — wait, no. You can’t be feminists, can you? I don’t see “To do: pay sex worker to ‘rape’ me” in your iCals.
July 7, 2008 at 3:55 pm
Sadness. Pure, soul-crushing, Monday, disillusioned sadness.
July 7, 2008 at 3:59 pm
Yeah. Exactly. sigh.
July 7, 2008 at 4:07 pm
While I agree with what you guys are saying that the comments were, at the very least, uncouth, haven’t these 2 writers always been the sort of un-feminists of Jezebel? I don’t recall either of them ever claiming to be feminists or even adhering to any mainstream feminist mindframe. In fact, both of them were always getting called out for their glib, unfeminist banter on Jezebel.
So, that makes me wonder why this woman chose them to be on her comedy drinking hour. Yes, they are both can be funny, but are they any less funny than the other top editors? Why didn’t she choose the editors that write a mostly feminist beat (Jessica and Megan?), why did she choose two of the more controversial writers? Seems a little fishy.
July 7, 2008 at 4:19 pm
@Buttonsonbuttons
They “claim” to be feminists, esp SM, did you watch the video?
July 7, 2008 at 4:25 pm
Buttons: There was a post last summer where SM described herself as a feminist (and defended herself in the wake of the Polanski criticism by saying she was a new-wave feminist) but Moe said she was not. It sparked a great debate in which the commenters, I believe, helped convince Moe that OF COURSE she was a feminist, unless, of course, she believed women to be inferior to men. And sadly, sometimes I now think she DOES believe women to be inferior to men.
July 7, 2008 at 4:29 pm
@Buttonsonbuttons: They’re probably the two editors with the most name recognition outside of Jezebel. That’s important when it comes to drawing an audience.
July 7, 2008 at 5:16 pm
I see a very unhealthy symbiosis between Moe and Tracie. And that’s a common problem in female relationships. Moe is bright and can write well when she’s motivated and not chemically enhanced; but she’s really insecure. Tracie has her good points as a writer and blogger, but she’s agressive and manipulative. Put the two of them together and something ugly appears. I like all of the other writers and editors and I do think Anna is a good editor who doesn’t have the backing she should from her publisher. Denton is sadly out of touch with what the focus of Jezebel should be. Page views aren’t enough. You can sell anything on the web these days. But he’s obviously a guy who wants to sell some type of class. He just doesn’t know what that is in a woman’s blog.
I’ve spent some time today reading through the last few months of posts on this and I’m really impressed. ButterPunch is turning out to be a prime example of what web content can be when readers and users look at what’s available and say, “Hey, we can do it better.” Keep it up, friends. I’m already thinking of stuff I’d like to contribute….
July 7, 2008 at 5:25 pm
And speaking of Denton and Anna, have you guys (the powers that be here at ButtercupPunch)tried to get into a dialogue with them? It could be worth the trouble…
July 7, 2008 at 5:30 pm
Well, Nick Douglas got canned today, so it’s not all croissants and foot massages over at Gawker HQ. (Confirmed by his Twitter, posted on my blog.) Just waiting for my sources to tell me why.
July 7, 2008 at 5:37 pm
Hez: That Williamsburg comment you posted was fantastic.
SHB: I personally have no interest in trying to get anyone fired, but I can imagine other people have probably been in touch. I mean if you’re a rape victim, their comments would be terribly upsetting.
July 7, 2008 at 5:41 pm
I feel like I’m intruding by posting here but since I don’t have commenter privileges on Jezebel, please permit me to vent a bit.
After viewing this “Shoot the Messenger” interview, I’m almost embarrassed to admit that I read Jezebel on a daily basis. Seeing Moe and Tracie “live” has me wondering if all of the site’s editors are this way in real life. If so, what an incredible let down. How can these two published writers get away with communicating so poorly? Like, you know, like, all retarded-like? (I’m around the same age as these two and trust me: we don’t all sound like this.) But since everything in the Gawkerverse seems to be about driving up page views now, I’m sure that this whole debacle will be labelled a great financial success.
I’ve been lurking at Jez since the very beginning so although you’ve never seen me comment, I feel like I know you all. What keeps me coming back to the site is the amazing writing on femilady topics with a bit of pop culture trash mixed in for good measure. I also love the real sense of community and the loyal chorus of clever and delightfully snarky commenters.
But this year it seems like the days of pertinent and snarky opinions on every post are over. Instead we are now left having to wade through 200+ comments of off-topic chit chat and flame wars. (I don’t want to seem ageist but this does seem to coincide with this year’s influx of young teen commenters.) And to make matters worse, certain editors seem to be deliberately posting flame-bait material lately.
While I’m sure that this is great for driving up ad sales, I hope they realise that they risk turning Jezebel into a slightly more political version of ONTD. Do we really want that to happen? There is still plenty of great writing there but the commenter culture as it is now has got to go. (Yes, I see the irony in complaining about commenters via commenting.)
Luckily, there is one positive in this whole “Shoot the Messenger” mess. It seems like the Jez editors are all on their best behaviour and the posts has been excellent today. Let’s all keep our fingers crossed that this trend will continue…
Keep up the good work, buttercups. I love your blog!
July 7, 2008 at 5:55 pm
I’m not trying to get anyone fired; redemption is always possible. I’d just like to have a dialogue, that’s all. I think it’s worth it. I think Jezebel is worth trying to save.
July 7, 2008 at 6:01 pm
I hear you, Spanish senorita!
July 7, 2008 at 6:02 pm
So this is where everyone has been hiding!
I’m de-lurking to thank you for this post, Trixie, and for providing a space where we can freely discuss what is going on at Jez. I hope no one minds if I join the party.
I was at the discussion last Monday and was disappointed, but not surprised, to learn that Tracie’s views on rape are exactly as laid out in the Polanski post and its follow-up. I had held out some hope that perhaps her true feelings had not come across accurately in writing, but, no, they did. Saying you haven’t been raped because you’ve been “smart” is a slap in the face to women everywhere, and it perpetuates the notion that women can somehow avoid rape, thereby continuing to place responsibility for avoiding rape squarely on the shoulders of the victim rather than the perpetrator(s).
As for Moe, I gave her a pass on much of what she said on account of the fact that she was ambushed by Winstead about not reporting her rapes. I agreed a lot of what Winstead said but was thoroughly disgusted by this; the last thing a victim needs to hear, even YEARS after a rape, is that she should have done ANYTHING differently during or after the attack. I spoke to Moe after the discussion and it seemed to me she felt as blindsided by that aspect of the discussion as one would expect. And this on top of having Tracie sitting two feet away from her talking about how she avoided being raped by being “smart.”
July 7, 2008 at 6:06 pm
Ah, THIS is the quote I was thinking of.
“I believe that we are all, openly or secretly, struggling against one or another kind of nihilism. I believe that body and spirit are not really separate, though it often seems that way. I believe that redemption is never impossible and always equivocal. But I guess that I just don’t know.” —Ellen Willis, Beginning to See the Light
July 7, 2008 at 6:07 pm
Thanks so much, BeardedLady!
July 7, 2008 at 6:18 pm
Since we’re all sharing and whatnot, here is exactly what I wrote to Anna over the weekend:
SUBJECT: I can’t begin to imagine…
Granted, I don’t know you personally or your personal code of ethics, but I do know from repeated personal experience that doing the right thing, the thing most in alignment with your beliefs and what you know is just is also the absolute hardest, most painful, unimaginable thing.
Naturally, this isn’t what you signed up for, I don’t imagine, but neither the world nor this country is so evolved that we can afford to lose the opportunity to reassert our courage, intelligence, resilience, beauty or strength as women of and/or on Jezebel.com. I hope that whatever happens, I can feel pride at being affiliated with and a part of the Jezebel community. I know I am not the only one who feels this way. I know that others feel a great sadness and disappointment as well, but with a bit of hope. I know the internets are teeming with the fallout from last week and the roar will only get more deafening in the coming week.
It’s…bewildering, I’m sure, and extremely overwhelming that such a huge thing can rest in your mind and hands and whatever course of action you choose, but there it is, my dear.
I believe in you and I believe in the power of what Jezebel once was and can probably still be.
With faith,
SBJ
———–
A girl can dream, can’t she? After all, BCP is here. That was once but a dream.
July 7, 2008 at 6:18 pm
@KittenFluff: underscores my point about the Moe/Tracie mind-meld.
July 7, 2008 at 6:21 pm
KittenFluff: I definitely feel more for Moe in that whole debacle than SM. There seems to be a lot of self-loathing there.
July 7, 2008 at 6:54 pm
Thank you for writing this. I can remember days when I couldn’t wait to get online to read Jez, but honestly haven’t read it for a while and sadly don’t feel like I’m missing anything. I appreciate that y’all have started buttercuppunch and feel much more at home.
July 7, 2008 at 7:03 pm
@Skinny Bone Jones: That was so good! I don’t feel as articulate as some others, but I’ve been trying to figure out what to write Anna all day. How do I express how disappointed I am, and yet how much magic and potential the site has?
I wrote Tracie after the Easy Bake Oven & Unicorn post, and she wrote me back one sentence basically saying she had nothing to apologize for. She is callous, that one. Which is tragic, because she’s obviously talented. But her lack of empathy for others just kills it for me.
July 7, 2008 at 7:47 pm
I wrote to Anna about 1/2 an hour ago as well, and expressed my extreme dismay (but lack of surprise) about the interview. It took me a while to realize it wasn’t all Jezzies that felt this way, but I was initially so shocked to see so many posts over there about how since condoms can’t protect you 100% from STIs like herpes and HPV, then there’s no point in using them.
I’ve since realized that the attitude was only concentrated around Moe and SM, and that’s a shame.
I told Anna that I love Dodai, Jessica, Megan, and Lizze’s posts (hope I’m not leaving anyone out!), and would like to continue to visit Jez for them, but I probably would stop if the site continues to trend in the direction of SM/Moe’s attitude…
July 7, 2008 at 7:47 pm
I read Jezebel every day, but I’ve noticed more and more that SM’s posts basically reflect the fact that she spends her days watching daytime television, smoking the devil’s weed, drinking, and fucking. She gets paid for it, but it’s not exactly a life I aspire to. I was glad, at least, to see her admit today that she’s not happy about her sex life, but I think it’s a bit late in the game. And she also seems to react pretty immaturely to any criticism of her posts. We’re supposed to get along on jezebel, and not hate on each other, right? SM seems to be doing a great deal of the hating. Not cool.
As for Moe, most of her posts ramble too much and I can never finish them.
My ex saw the HuffPo post, and started insulting me for reading jezebel. I told him I really read it for the reader comments. They should fire SM and hire a couple of commenters in her place.
July 7, 2008 at 7:56 pm
As an infrequent and somewhat intimidated commenter on Jezebel, I have been reading BCP for some time now, devouring the fabulous AND socially conscious blogulation. Who knew they could exist together in such harmony?! I am SO not surprised and yet SO angry at what both Moe and Tracie said in that interview. I wrote Anna this weekend saying that it is becoming harder and harder to justify even clicking on Jezebel when I so vehemently disagree with their staffing and editorial choices. I consistently come back for the commenters, though. Ya’ll keep pulling me back in, dammit! Keep up the good work, and thank you for fighting for what you believe in.
July 7, 2008 at 8:02 pm
I’m so glad not.a.clever.name linked to this. I wasn’t a Jez “from the beginning,” and I used to feel scared of and annoyed with the older group who came down so hard on newcomers who stepped out of line. Now I’m saddened to see them all leaving, and I’m glad to see you’re still together, if not necessarily on Jezebel. I hate what Jezebel is becoming, but it’s hard to leave. For weeks I’ll just enjoy the posts that make me think about politics, relationships, friendships, and life in new and interesting ways, and then something like this pops up. The problems are becoming too big and ugly to ignore. Tracie’s selfishness and Moe’s lack of restraint are about to push me off the Jezebel boat altogether; so I hope if y’all don’t mind if I put this place on my list of new blogs to fill my Jezebel void. You guys make me feel proud and happy again.
July 7, 2008 at 8:15 pm
Please do, Jammiriffic, but don’t give up on Jez. I haven’t. I still love so much about it and it really was/is the inspiration for what we wanted to do with BCP.
But thanks for your kind words; they mean a lot. As do the kind and gracious kudos from everyone who’s come here today. Thanks for showing up, and don’t hesitate to e-mail us at buttercuppunch@gmail.com if you have anything you’d like us to blog about.
July 7, 2008 at 8:18 pm
Finally de lurking to chime in on this.
After the whole Polanski gate, I skipped over to SM’s blog to see what she had to say about this and when I saw her “I will not be censored and will use what ever offensive terms I like” post, I decided not not to read anymore of her posts. Someone who is blinded that much by privilege and self absorbtion is just not worth my eye time.
As for Moe, she can be a good writer, but she often just comes across like she needs help.
That aside, great site you’ve got here ladies!
July 7, 2008 at 8:18 pm
Rambling’s what I’m good for:
Jezebel was (and right now still is) the first site that ever felt like “me” and like others commented before I sincerely hope that Anna will be able to recapture what attracted so many people to the site early on and not lose page views (but please ban like 50% of the commenters). With the pay cuts that just happened, sadly I see more flame baiting posts and the kill or be killed mentality of the comments continuing.
Now as to what this post is actually addressing…word to your mother.
July 7, 2008 at 8:18 pm
Ahhhh. You guys are making me feel so much better. I was very frustrated. :)
July 7, 2008 at 8:22 pm
i’m so glad i found this post. like the bearded lady, i’ve been a longtime lurker of jezebel and that video made me sick. jezebel used to be so fun to read. it was great to have a site that discussed politics and feminism mixed in with celebrities and fashion. i especially loved reading the comments- and not to kiss ass (but i will), the commenters in here have been my favorites. but now the site and the comments are tired. i rarely find a post or comment that really sticks with me- where i used to find many.
as for the video, i found tracie to be absolutely appalling. her roman polanski post and non-apology post pissed me off, but her interview made me livid. how “feminist” of her to imply that she’s smarter than rape victims because she hasn’t been raped. it frightens me to think that others look up to her- and despite what she thinks, they do. on the other hand, i feel very bad for moe. i think she’s a good writer and i’ve enjoyed a lot of her (non-HRC) posts, but she obviously has some issues that she needs to work out. and i hope she does, because i’d like to continue reading her work.
honestly, i hope they fire tracie. she has a terrible attitude and makes the entire site look very bad.
anyway, this post was awesome. thank you for this.
July 7, 2008 at 8:33 pm
@dictator4life, HistoricUpstart, jammiriffic:
Sweet talkers.
July 7, 2008 at 8:37 pm
@BAngieB: Sycophants, you might even call us.
July 7, 2008 at 8:52 pm
@BAngieB & jammiriffic: Or Commentwhores!!
July 7, 2008 at 8:54 pm
This is SUCH an oh captain my captain moment.
absolutely beautiful.
July 7, 2008 at 8:57 pm
@ineffable.me. I was thinking it’s more of an “I Am Spartacus!” moment.
July 7, 2008 at 9:05 pm
Alright, STOPIT. Y’all are confusing me with all the lesbian sex and OH CAPTAIN MY CAPTAIN talk. I know I’m a feminist and all, but I don’t want the whole world to revolve around my clit.
Oh wait, maybe I do!
July 7, 2008 at 9:11 pm
Out of all of this discussion, more than how I think that Tracie is a horrible person, I feel for Moe even more. She has a “friend” that thinks that basically said that she got raped because she’s not smart. With all of Moe’s problems, not being smart is not one of them.
I am disgusted by the whole interview as a whole and I still think that both Tracie and Moe need to be held accoutable for their actions.
But, one thing to remember blaming the victim for what she did or didn’t do pertaining to her rape is NEVER right.
July 7, 2008 at 9:13 pm
Damn, I’m just thrilled to see ya’ll coming over to this “little secret” blog. Isn’t it great to be able to have intelligent discourse on a subject?
Ya’ll tell your friends. This is a nice little place Trix & Kadinsky et al have here.
July 7, 2008 at 9:13 pm
News for any of you who, unlike me, have a life and have not wasted this entire evening – the editorial silence has been broken: http://jezebel.com/5022624/dudes-today-the-emotional-conquistador-is-the-new-sexual-conquistador#c6553155
Only not really, since Megan isn’t an editor (though I really wish she was). But still, it’s a start. Maybe.
July 7, 2008 at 9:26 pm
I have avoided all things Jezebel for a while now. And I was hoping I wouldn’t comment about it at all…anywhere…UGH! For sometime my commenting on Jezebel had come to a slow painful crawl. Now I haven’t made a comment on Jezebel in about two weeks or so, my own silent protest to what has transpired there, but I never thought things would go this far and in this direction. It’s been one thing to read the thoughts and activities of Tracie and Moe and disagree with what they say, do or promote and really a whole different beast to see the words come out of their mouths. I watched with disbelief, I had a pit in my stomach, it was repulsive on so many levels. Unfortunately the reality is that they really are the exact same words spoken on that stage as what has been written by both of them on Jezebel. They were not “blindsided”.
It’s become such a chaotic situation there. The site was once so extraordinary and now just seems so completely ugly, irresponsible and disappointing.
Someone pointed out a comment from another site addressing this event that they thought was my comment, asked me “is this you?”…well, I wish it were because it says a great deal and expresses some of my exact thoughts over the last few months in regard to these young women and their self respect or lack there of. I’d like to share this and hope the author doesn’t mind.
“…I think the questions were asked of people who think they are immortal by someone who knows that they are not. These girls are in a very heavy state of denial regarding the risks they are taking and the likelihood of surviving this period of their lives.
There is a great difference between sexual freedom and sexual license. Freedom to engage in sexual activity without a marriage license should be the prerogative of every woman. License to engage in sexual behavior with random strangers is, and always has been, the province of immaturity, self hatred and self destruction.
The equation of sexual license with the feminist movement is one of the most destructive things to happen to feminism since the the ERA went down to defeat.
I hope these women survive this phase of their lives and learn to care about themselves. Self respect is the basis of good relationships, and these girls have none at this point in their lives.”
by An Older Feminist at 10:54pm 7/4/2008
You can find this comment here:
http://www.shootthemessengernyc.com/index.php?/behindthescenes/jezebelism_my_interview_with_moe_and_tracie
I also would add that I think the fact that Lizz tried to point out that the privileges and rights these two have and take so callously for granted are lacking in a sense of history that really has nothing to do with “waves”. It’s really “Herstory” as those women’s studies chicks like to say and with out it they wouldn’t be where they are.
*SIGH*
Women of BCP I am honored to call each of you friend. I was here for the launch and well, y’all been rockin’ your shit here. Guest blogger’s same goes for you. I guess I need to set up camp and settle in already. Pass whatever it is you’re doing my way.
July 7, 2008 at 10:16 pm
Awww Pickles. My tuna isn’t the same without you in it.
July 7, 2008 at 10:19 pm
Today was my first day of commenter silence, tho’ I did click on posts by Dodai, Jessica, Megan, and Maria several times. I’m shaking a bit from the withdrawal pangs.
I got more work done today than I have in about 2 years!
July 7, 2008 at 10:26 pm
So THIS is where y’all went!!!
Another lurker coming forward. Seems like we’re coming out of the woodwork.
Yeah, I’ve been reading Jez and loving it, but it’s been rough with all of you leaving. The best part were your comments. I never signed up to comment, because quite frankly, all those rules seemed to defeat the purpose of sharing your thoughts…
I’ve never been one to comment, but I have to say, at this point, I have to. The Polanski post was a slap in the face, the “fuck-you if you don’t agree” post was worse, but this one, this video, is just too much to keep silent. This is actually scary, that they are representing feminism, and younger Jezzies might actually follow suit.
This here is a great blog and a very well written response to the whole debacle.
I’ve really loved reading all your comments (and Tcheese too, she always makes me hungry!). I won’t give up on Jez yet, but I’m definitely gonna hang around here now!
So, any rules for this blog, or can we all join?
July 7, 2008 at 10:38 pm
I truly believe that Tracie Egan will learn, grow and evolve from this debacle. As for Moe, I find her arrogance will not lead to any sort of enlightenment…..
July 7, 2008 at 10:42 pm
@oceanlover1114: I wish I could share your belief that Tracie will learn from this. But seeing as apparently didn’t learn anything from the Polanski mess, I have serious doubts.
July 7, 2008 at 11:44 pm
@cate3710: thanks for posting this! I saw the number of comments to this post growing and growing, but refused to click out of (the aforementioned) principle, until your link showed it might be worthwhile. Call me a pageview miser!
I think the whole “it’s been 24 business hours” line is disingenuous since it’s been far longer since the event occurred and they HAD to know the shit was bound to hit the fan way before now. But whatever – as long as they address it (responsibly, please, and not another post-Polanski-esque b.s.-fest from SM!) I’ll read the post and comments. I guess I’m basically at the point of “I’ll believe it when I see it.”
In the meantime, I’ll just keep reading Megan, Dodai, Jessica, and the rest of the “doesn’t piss me off crew”.
July 7, 2008 at 11:48 pm
No rules, JewelofDenial. We don’t like tiresome accusations of mean-girlism and clique-ism — that scorches our pads and in fact our slogan for awhile was a joke on that theme.
But that’s about it! Anything goes!
July 8, 2008 at 12:04 am
No Shit! I am so sick of that fucking term – ‘mean girl’, pfft feck off.
July 8, 2008 at 12:05 am
Add my name to the de-lurkers coming out of the woodwork here. I started reading Jez last fall, and was so excited to find a like-minded community. It still has its moments, and I do love Dodai, Jessica, Megan, Sadie, and Lizzie. I’ve defected to weekend/evening gawker, and though it’s fun, I miss the (dare I say) earnest, intelligent issues-based conversation of Jezebel! Thanks for this response, and please keep moving forward with your excellent work.
July 8, 2008 at 12:10 am
Thanks Trixie.
Just let me know if I step out of line. I’m French-Canadian, and Englsh is my second language, so I might misunderstand a few things – you mean if you make a comment I don’t automatically jump down your throat to accuse you of girl-on-girl crime?
Yeah, i LUV when that happens…
I really do want to send Megan some love though…
July 8, 2008 at 12:15 am
@Pickles…very eloquent, nice to see you over here! As a long-time public health person who’s worked around communicable disease, I’m beyond disgusted by SM and Moe’s stance on all matters related to sex. It’s nice to see I’m not a totally jaded soul and others perceive some very deep seated problems in their perspectives. I don’t anticipate change and Nick Denton is probably laughing over the controversy their problems/issues generate, which is why I have a distate for all things Gawker. And while I’m bitchin, Moe was very ugly toward the animal lovers last week…and that shit doesn’t cut it with The Devil.
July 8, 2008 at 12:24 am
Wow! The comment number has about doubled since I posted earlier (and I have to say, geting called out favorably by trixie feels just as thrilling (if not more so) than the first favorable response I got to a Jez comment, lo these many months ago)(I believe I joined in March). I have to say, I’ve been wondering for the past few weeks if I shouldn’t feel a little bit guilty for what’s happened to Jezebel; I am one of the “new young commenters” who joined in recent months, I wasn’t there at the beginning, and I’ve wondered if I’m the problem. But I try, very hard, not to be; and knowing that BCP is here for the day I don’t feel like I’m in good company at Jez anymore (even as new as I am to it, I’ve noticed the absence of the standouts who were there when I first joined, most of whom I’ve seen here) is quite a solace– I would simply not survive the workday, and indeed many of my personal issues, without a place like these sites. Thanks, ladies, and by all means, keep it up. I would send baked goods if I knew how to, you know, send things. (The baking I actually do know how to do.)
July 8, 2008 at 12:32 am
@girlscoutcookie: omg, do not joke about the baked goodness – we know an excellent Jonesy who has mad shipping skills, for serious.
July 8, 2008 at 12:55 am
No joke! I wouldn’t dare– and would never be so cruel, not with y’all! If someone schools me on the finer points of shipping, there will be raspberry-chocolate bars and mint-fudge brownies and blueberry-coconut cheesecake squares (although that last would probably not travel well, come to think of it) abounding.
July 8, 2008 at 4:24 am
I’m so glad you posted this, Trix. I just jumped over to Jez to read the response posts, but they’re topping out at over 700… so I will presume that these responses are a less time-consuming version.
We’re so happy to see everybody! Also grateful for the encouraging comments.
July 8, 2008 at 9:56 am
The former Lady Skittlehattington here, posting up in your blog.
Isn’t it amazing that something that started out so strong and awesome and brought us all together turned into a many-headed beast that most of us can’t stand anymore?
Anyway…my opinion is this. In the beginning, Jezebel was about bringing women together in a forum of like-mindedness. It was about its readers, which is what writing is all about. Or so I’ve been told. But at some point, Jezebel started ignoring those readers. They lost all professionalism and fell in love with their own “celebrity.” It’s nice to have fans and be fawned over, but that wasn’t the original focus of Jezebel. Which is why I think a lot of people are turned off.
July 8, 2008 at 9:59 am
Girlscout … oh my God. Raspberry-chocolate bars? Post recipe please! With kisses and love in advance!
July 8, 2008 at 10:05 am
Awesome, awesome post. I only just watched the clips last night, and am so disappointed…not even because I thought Moe and SM represented “feminism” or anything (because, um, no – at least, not by my idea of what feminism is), but because they just don’t seem to care that the whole thing was a shitstorm of irresponsibility.
I’ve been reading Jez from the beginning (though I rarely if ever comment), but I think – after this, and the HRC-bashing, and the whole SM/Polanski debacle – that I am done. And I’m glad I can still read all y’all over here.
July 8, 2008 at 10:14 am
I got banned today for my comments on Jezebel last night, and while I regret NOTHING I said, I’m sad that the editors are so…what’s the word? Unaccountable? Skeered? Unable to defend their own actions?
THERE WAS A DREAM THAT WAS JEZEBEL!
(dies)
July 8, 2008 at 10:19 am
Holy cow – reading these smart, provoking comments is like harkening back to the good old days!
Congrats to the BCPers for an excellent blog!
July 8, 2008 at 10:30 am
I keep clicking over to people’s pages to commend them for their comments on last night’s thread only to find they they’ve been banned (like you, Katastic). I am sad.
July 8, 2008 at 10:36 am
@katastic: what did you get banned for ? I saw some of the comments and they didn’t look very imflammatory.
And I’m disappointed but not surprised by Anna’s “let them deal with it on their blogs” response. It’s been the line of Jezebel that disagreements with editorial policy be dealt with only in mails to the editors. Which doesn’t work, because reader reactions frequently and easily cross over from what’s written in the posts to the philosophy behind the magazine. And editors are writers there. So when do you know when you’ve crossed the line? And since Moe and SM relish in being outrageous, it seems hypocritical to slash commenters for similar behavior. I’m not saying there aren’t people who deserve to be defenestrated; I could do without about 40% of Jezebel lately. But they’re inconsistent in their application of such policy.
July 8, 2008 at 10:38 am
And for the record I thought the post about sensitive dudes last night – the new, improved, kindler, gentler Slut Machine – was a pathetic attempt to defuse the situation.
July 8, 2008 at 10:39 am
BadenBaden sent me over here. Nice to know that smart responsible women with intelligent things to say are being banned left and right. Except for Katastic. Obviously you are a menace and need to be stopped.
Sigh. Who else feels old right now?
July 8, 2008 at 10:39 am
hold the phone! Katastic was banned? that is bullcrap! who else was banned?
July 8, 2008 at 10:40 am
@ Trixie: I emailed y’all the recipe. Enjoy!
July 8, 2008 at 11:06 am
@militia: I was banned. So was sinisterrouge.
July 8, 2008 at 11:08 am
I’m sort of proud of it. But I was also the rebel type who felt like I’d won when I made a teacher mad enough to send me to the principal’s office.
July 8, 2008 at 11:10 am
I know ineffable.me and notaclevername and Lipstick Librarian and SinisterRouge were all also banned, as were others. It just makes me SAD. I used to really love Jezebel, and it’s totally changed. I expected better, and it’s sad to see it go so far off the rails.
I have met all of you smart wonderful women through it, for which I am grateful. But today I’m sad for what we lost.
July 8, 2008 at 11:12 am
@katastic: Jesus Christ.
July 8, 2008 at 11:17 am
@NOLA girl–I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but a couple of people have already seen that this has happened.
July 8, 2008 at 11:17 am
Whoa, what the hell? I just reinstated my commenting privleges and now I read that commenters have been banned?
I hope this is temporary ladies. You all are the sane voices over there. I was happy that Anna acknowledged the post, she is really in a tough spot. All I can hope for is the SM loses the bulk of her audience.
July 8, 2008 at 11:20 am
I feel sort of liberated by my banning. And you know, if I was ever going to get banned, I am glad it was for speaking my mind and calling out bullshit when I see it.
I will still be coming round these parts, of course.
July 8, 2008 at 11:31 am
@TruculentandUnreliable: I have, but I didn’t realize who and how many were banned.
July 8, 2008 at 11:39 am
Very late to the conversation, but…
I was wondering where all the best Jez commenters had disappeared to. It’s nice to see you here.
And here I’d assumed you all had fled the lame commenters (a group that likely includes me) when all along it was the posts themselves that were getting to you.
I agree with all of you. I think I started to lose it with the “I don’t tell my sex partners I have herpes” post. It made me feel really old. And really tired. And really, really depressed.
July 8, 2008 at 11:47 am
This latest debacle has prompted me to de-lurk. I have been reading BCP for a while now, and I love what you ladies have been doing!
To say I’m disappointed in Moe and Tracie is an understatement. I’m even more disappointed that some of the best commenters on Jezebel were banned for voicing their concerns and opinions last night.
As much as I miss the old Jezebel, I’m really excited that some of my favorite commenters have started blogs of their own.
Keep it up ladies!
July 8, 2008 at 11:49 am
As my husband said, “A feminist website banned mouthy, outspoken women? That seems counterintuitive.”
July 8, 2008 at 11:52 am
Mr. Marvelous–he ain’t dumb. Mayhaps that is why he’s marvelous? :)
July 8, 2008 at 12:12 pm
To all who were banned: take it as a compliment. The Powers that Be always try to silence the folks who point out the emperor has no clothes.
July 8, 2008 at 12:25 pm
Just another Jezebel defector coming over to express how disappointed I am in where the site has gone. This post summed my feelings up quite well. It’s too bad because I think Megan’s posts are fantastic, as others have noted.
Also, as others have noted, I miss the old Jezebel SO HARD.
July 8, 2008 at 12:26 pm
Re: all the banning – Jesus fucking Christ. That’s it, I’m doing actually work today. I’ll probably wander over there tonight to see if Megan or Dodai posted anything, but this is no longer worth my time.
July 8, 2008 at 12:27 pm
@myself – Er, actual work. Or I’m actually working. But not doing actually work. Geez.
July 8, 2008 at 12:30 pm
@NeverNikki: He’s ubermarvelous and a bigger feminist than me. Me, I’ve come over to Obama, but he still says he’s writing Hillary in. :)
July 8, 2008 at 12:32 pm
Yet another lurker rearing her head.
I think Jezebel still has its good points, and can be a good site again, I really do. But it’s just such a shame that something that was so rare and special only last summer has lost its way so badly. My commenting has dropped off pretty drastically over the last several months.
It stopped being fun. And that was the best thing about Jezebel– it was a place for women to talk seriously and have fun. You guys have really captured the spirit of what that site used to be over here, and thank you for it.
July 8, 2008 at 12:35 pm
Waidaminute…did someone say cheesecake squares??? *salivates*
It’s warming my shriveled raisin of a heart to see all of these monikers I recognize from the Jezebel boards comin’ on over to BCP. I’m also happy they are banning y’all, ’cause that has to hurt them more than you (it is ALL about the pageviews, ya know?). I know withdrawal is hard, but be strong. Trust me on this: You’ll get so you can’t even open up their main page without shuddering and rolling your eyes.
I’m convinced this was just the latest in a long, long line of “stunts” in which the writer/editors poke and prod their commenters with subject matter they know will create controversy. It’s been a slow summer for news, and their numbers have been falling off since March.
July 8, 2008 at 12:37 pm
wow. go away for an extra long weekend and come back to…. this?
i’ll just say i’m glad i already started showing up here more than over at jez lately. there has been a reason and now it’s sad to see it explode.
love live the buttercups. x
July 8, 2008 at 12:39 pm
Oh, hey – It’s me, occasional Jez commenter I Will Not Stop Feeding My Fat Baby.
I just wanted to say, yeah it’s a messed up situation, but I totally called this (to myself) when they announced they would be on the show. I didn’t know what they would say, but I knew it was going to be awful. Of course, that’s nothing special. Anyone reading Jezebel for the last several months could have predicted that. Except the editors, apparently.
Anyways…this place looks pretty rad. I will continue to read. I only de-lurk occasionally. :)
July 8, 2008 at 12:43 pm
ineffable me: Well, y’all know I don’t like ugly talk, so I haven’t been banned.
YET.
July 8, 2008 at 12:44 pm
I’m an infrequent Jez commenter, and I was working in Anaheim when this was advertised and thus knew nothing about it. But as soon as I read the words “Tracie and Moe” in reference to a public appearance, I knew nothing good would come of it.
I’m not going to quit reading Jezebel (esp. if Megan C. is hired as an editor, as her posts are terrific), but I do hope that lessons are learned from this incident.
July 8, 2008 at 12:53 pm
Hey BAngieB–wanna have a ban-off? Whoever gets banned first gets 5 bucks? :)
July 8, 2008 at 12:56 pm
yes yes yes yes! i am so upset at how this whole thing is being handled. on top of the bullshit about roman polanski. i really felt it was insult to injury after that incident when instead of apologizing, tracie posts about how she loves being a woman because “yay cupcakes unicorns” bullshit omg. that was maddening. (but hey, at least she’s taught me that i’m smart bc i havent been raped yet! yayayayy!!!!!!) buttercuppunch, youre replacing the jezebel.com in my google reader today!
July 8, 2008 at 12:56 pm
I LOVE seeing so many commenter names I recognize!
July 8, 2008 at 12:57 pm
Bowling. Not fair that your squigglehead gets a monocle.
July 8, 2008 at 12:59 pm
i get a unibrow :(
July 8, 2008 at 1:00 pm
@Mayor of Bethville: And she’s so smug about the monocle! Look at that little smirk! Bitch.
July 8, 2008 at 1:00 pm
@ineffable.me: Shit, so do I. I hadn’t noticed. I was too distracted by the huge grin.
July 8, 2008 at 1:01 pm
http://www.facebook.com/apps/application.php?id=3052170175#/topic.php?uid=3052170175&topic=6145
Well this is shaping up to be a helluva week. Now they’re trying to take Scrabulous away from us!
Dangit! I’ve only played 3 games, and just had my ass trounced by BAngieB! *pouts*
July 8, 2008 at 1:06 pm
@paisleypajamas: Bangieb did WHAT with your ass?
July 8, 2008 at 1:10 pm
Time? I just got banned!
July 8, 2008 at 1:14 pm
@Katastic: HA! She beat me by more than double the points on Scrabulous…it was shameful. She’s like a “Scrabble Shark” that one.
Trixie is fixin’ to trounce my semi-literate ass as well. Times TWO!
Hmmm…why am I mourning the potential loss of Scrabulous again?
July 8, 2008 at 1:17 pm
ZOMfuckingG, a bake swap. That would be so sexy. We could do it in the Fall, like October. It would be so hard, though, timing-wise. I’m in the wrong damn business.
July 8, 2008 at 1:18 pm
@NeverNikki: Damn you’re fast. I think I’m about to go out too. Fingers crossed!
July 8, 2008 at 1:23 pm
@NeverNikki: I nominate you for BOTD – Ban of the day.
Also – Does my avatar look at all like Heather Duke? A little?
July 8, 2008 at 1:25 pm
Katastic: VULGAR!!
July 8, 2008 at 1:26 pm
I’m glad someone linked to this yesterday — I hadn’t realized how many former regulars were missing off of jezebel! It’s nice to find you all over here.
Although referring to this site in the shorthand as BCP is confusing me, as that is what my mom calls birth control pills.
Banning commenters is kind of like banning the girl you’re mad at from your lunch table in 7th grade.
July 8, 2008 at 1:30 pm
What is really frustrating is that by the time the post from Anna went up, most of the people I really wanted to discuss the issue with had either been banned or left Jez in frustration. I think I would have been less upset had there never been a post at all.
July 8, 2008 at 1:33 pm
If everyone’s over here now, y’all are going to need a better hosting platform. This non-linking-comments BS is taking my already pained head over the edge. Plus I don’t recognize anyone without their avatars.
Thank God you’re here though. For serious.
July 8, 2008 at 1:33 pm
NeverNikki: Congratulations! I thought your comments on thread were great, so I’m not surprised you got banned. I guess Jez is not going to tolerate open criticism of their most visible cash cows.
July 8, 2008 at 1:33 pm
KittenFluff–It was just badly handled all around. I don’t know why she didn’t snip it in the bud before now.
July 8, 2008 at 1:35 pm
es-ki-mo–you need a scrunchy. Red, preferable.
NOLA girl–will you tell Broad that my banned ass is sorry for mistakenly calling her out? Thank you!
NOW…on to more important things. Who is creepier, the Burger King or Ronald McDonald?
July 8, 2008 at 1:38 pm
Well, my squigglehead has crazy eyes, ineff! I look like I ate the glitterberries.
Well played, Cate. Well played.
July 8, 2008 at 1:39 pm
NN, The Burger King is creepier. Normally, I would gun for the clown, but not in this case.
July 8, 2008 at 1:41 pm
@NN – The Burger King for sure. That big head and the way he creeps up on people gives me the shivers.
July 8, 2008 at 1:45 pm
You are all correct. It is the Burger King who is creepier.
Gah, my brain feels mushy. I am so glad Im out of the office tomorrow and wont have the ability to check out the Website That Shall Not Be Named. And seethe.
July 8, 2008 at 1:46 pm
@Paisley: I believe you have spotted the method to the madness that is being spun by Gawker. FTW!!
July 8, 2008 at 1:46 pm
It’s because he only has the one facial expression.
July 8, 2008 at 1:50 pm
@ The Mayor: Exactly! The Burger King’s plasticine head and never changing expression are terrifying.
But the unattatched lips that are the Dairy Queen symbol is even scarier to me.
July 8, 2008 at 1:50 pm
i love the glitterberries!
July 8, 2008 at 1:51 pm
the thing that i dont get about the stupid dairy queen lips is why they have a male voice. THEY ARE RED GIRLY LIPS!!!
July 8, 2008 at 1:54 pm
@NeverNikki: My boss just left for a month-long vacation. I was supposed to have extra, uninterrupted Jez time. I guess I can work on my project instead.
July 8, 2008 at 1:55 pm
Clearly it’s an homage to Rocky Horror Picture Show, ineff.
And I never pay attention to the creepiness of the disembodied lips because I am too busy getting all hot and bothered over my fantasy Blizzard. :)
July 8, 2008 at 1:56 pm
Wow, just made it over hear via SinisterRouge’s commenter page on Jezebel. I, too, have been on Jezebel from the beginning and was an occasional commenter. I couldn’t quite figure out why I didn’t spend a lot of time there in the past months, but this post pretty much articulated it for me. And, I sort of wondered what happened to all the interesting folks who had been there from the beginning as well. So many questions answered with one click of the mouse…I plan on spending some time here checking out the new digs.
And, the recent commenter bans at Jezebel are pathetic. Having intelligent discussions/debates usually requires two opposing viewpoints. That was always why I spent my precious little downtime there. I guess fascism is the new feminism over there.
July 8, 2008 at 1:56 pm
I said “snipped.” I meant “nipped.” Dumbass.
July 8, 2008 at 1:58 pm
Mmm, Blizzard. Is there a DQ in the NYC area, Ms. Mayor, or is this something I need to add to my “shit to do while home in the Midwest” list?
July 8, 2008 at 1:58 pm
Well, I have a really bad taste in my mouth from the 900+ comments on Anna’s thinking and drinking post. And I also made the mistake of linking over to Tracie’s post about the whole situation.
All I can say is:Thank god for Buttercups!
Also, Never Niki: you went out in a blaze of glory on that thread.
I probably won’t completely cut off the website that shall not be named but I know now where to head for some intelligent discussion for sure! And it doesn’t start w/ a J!!!
July 8, 2008 at 2:01 pm
After SMs polanski post and that arrogant backpedal post about unicorns this jezebel fuck-up was bound to happen. I just wish something productive would come from it.
July 8, 2008 at 2:01 pm
@h_a_l – Dammit, now I’m really tempted to go see how NN went out. Must.resist.urge.
July 8, 2008 at 2:02 pm
I’m coming to this party days late and $$ short but damn, I’m glad to see this post, so many comments, and to see so many others are getting really tired of whatever the hell is happening over at Jezebel.
I even noticed a few weeks ago that I was getting better and more fem-positive messages from Gawker.
July 8, 2008 at 2:07 pm
@cate3710: I’ll sum it up: “Fuck you Tracie!”
It was loverly.
July 8, 2008 at 2:09 pm
Thanks, NOLA girl. My productivity has been saved. My bosses thank you.
July 8, 2008 at 2:10 pm
@ineffable, cate: the worst is Sonic, with their late night commercials, in the Midwest, where there are NO SONICS.
constantly I am teased with chili-cheese tater tots and a Route 44 cherry-limeade that is not to be had, *le sigh*.
July 8, 2008 at 2:12 pm
@Cate: She said “And you know what? Fuck you Tracie. How fucking dare you.”
I was already looking at it. I’m too addicted to Jez to give it up cold turkey. I’ll just focus my clicking on the other editor’s posts.
July 8, 2008 at 2:12 pm
@cate3710: She called out a commenter for saying that Moe’s rape was not as bad as other types of rape, and saying “fuck you” to that commenter and to Tracie.
July 8, 2008 at 2:13 pm
Wow, you guys are fast. Sorry to be repetitive!
July 8, 2008 at 2:14 pm
The cream rises to the top. Nice to see you all again!
July 8, 2008 at 2:15 pm
Oh NOLA girl, you nice lady. Thanks.
July 8, 2008 at 2:15 pm
@Kadinsky – Same goes for CT. We also get Papa Johns and SteinMart commercials. I think they’re just trying to make me move back to South Carolina.
July 8, 2008 at 2:19 pm
I’m jealous that I didn’t get to say “fuck you, Tracie” and more, but I was ironically trying not to be banned (when I got banned.) Excellent way to go out.
July 8, 2008 at 2:19 pm
Well hello, ladies. I feel like I’ve come home to be reunited with all the names I know and like. How sweet it is!
July 8, 2008 at 2:21 pm
No, Cate. The closest one is out in Buttfuck, NJ about 10 miles from where my ex lives. At least an hour by train. Lame.
Agreed, Kadinsky. Sonic commercials are torture.
July 8, 2008 at 2:22 pm
@Kadinsky- But there are Sonics in the Midwest! At least in the parts I’m familiar with (ie St. Louis area and central IL). And now I want a cherry-limeade. Damn. That’s going on the list too. I am disturbed by how much of my list centers on fast food.
@BlondeGrlz- Oh, I’m not capable of cold turkey either. The first 300 or so posts ate up my morning, and I know I’ll go back tonight. But for now – productivity! Sort of.
July 8, 2008 at 2:22 pm
My monocled avatar has me thinking everything I write should be read as if in an English accent. Well done, old chaps.
July 8, 2008 at 2:23 pm
Hi! I’m kind of the new girl, but I wanted to drop in and say I love your new spot. I don’t love what’s going on over there today and think it will get worse before it gets better, if that happens at all.
July 8, 2008 at 2:23 pm
@missviolaswam: The way BCP has “No Classy, No Assy,” Jezebel should have “Fascism is the New Feminism.”
@couponwhore: I even noticed a few weeks ago that I was getting better and more fem-positive messages from Gawker.
And THAT is exactly what happened to me…on most occasions. It was even Defamer that finally starred me…*grumble-grumble*.
July 8, 2008 at 2:25 pm
@Kadinsky: You cannot hide your “Texas” with your Sonic snackin’ and your jonesin’ for a Frito pie and Dr. Peppers, you!
July 8, 2008 at 2:25 pm
It felt gooood.
And do any Chicagoans get massive Steak n’ Shake jones? I’m from Indiana and they don’t have them here and they torture me with those commercials all. the. time.
July 8, 2008 at 2:27 pm
@ms.marv: In my head, my squigglehead voice sounds like Peter Lorre.
July 8, 2008 at 2:30 pm
@The Mayor of Bethville: Indubitably, my dear mayor, indubitably.
July 8, 2008 at 2:32 pm
You got banned! What garbage.
July 8, 2008 at 2:33 pm
Wow…I stopped reading Jezebel right around the time that Tracie put up her response to that Polanski post. I just decided that I wasn’t going to spend my time reading a site written by people that 1) weren’t mature enough to admit when they made a mistake and 2) talked down to their readers when said mistakes were pointed out.
I can’t bring myself to watch that clip…but in a way, I’m glad to know that my self-imposed Jezebel ban was justified. It’s also really nice to see that I’m not alone in the way I feel. Thank goodness for BCP!
Now if only Jezebel could return to the awesomeness that it once was…
July 8, 2008 at 2:35 pm
@ BlondeGrlz Cold turkey is really the only way to go. It took me a few days to get over the shakes, but now it doesn’t even cross my mind to check over there.
Believe me, your blood-pressure will thank you.
July 8, 2008 at 2:35 pm
Wait a minute! This is crap! How come Kadinsky gets to be a Powerpuff Girl and I have to be a cog?! No fair!
July 8, 2008 at 2:37 pm
@ kadinsky:
They just opened a Sonic in St.Paul, MN! The line goes around the block and into another parking lot…it’s just like when we got our first Krispy Kreme. So if you’re desparate for sonic, come this way!
July 8, 2008 at 2:42 pm
@Tee Em Eff Gee: I don’t know if it can. The commenters have had their brush with celebrity, and it’s really hard to shrug it off and get back in the game.
With their new policy of banning anyone who disagrees with editors, corrects their glaring editorial mistakes, or takes the unpopular opinion, it pretty much just needs a fork for garnish.
@ Paisley Pajamas: *grumble-sigh* I need to think positive because someone else agreeing with me that Defamer and Gawker are more female friendly is ruining an already shitty week. Not meaning to insult, just sad my instinct wasn’t that far off! Something was said about Sonic, lets talk Tater Tots!
July 8, 2008 at 2:43 pm
NN, you have to register with WordPress to upload your own avatar.
July 8, 2008 at 2:44 pm
@NeverNikki: Yes, but there are plenty of Steak n’ Shakes in the Chicago suburbs. Totally worth the trip if you happen to crave chili or cheese fries at 3 a.m.
Portillos, on the other hand, is my personal weakness….
July 8, 2008 at 2:44 pm
@Paisley: mah TEX-ASS is just itchin’ to be let out, ain’t it? it’s all your fault, hooker – you make me miss home even with the ass-crack humidity!
July 8, 2008 at 2:45 pm
Whynot, I don’t know if you are reading this but your comment on Slut Machine’s “I’m Not Here To Make Friends” post was made of win.
July 8, 2008 at 2:47 pm
@gecko: ooooh, I dunno – that’s VikQueen territory and I need to be armed with better bootlegs and a strong depth chart.
July 8, 2008 at 2:54 pm
Wow, you fucking dykes, I am so heartened and happy to have you here. Hi BlondeGrlz! Love you!
But seriously, let’s give them a chance. I believe something will be learned from what’s happened, and I think they probably banned the commenters in a bit of a rage and while feeling under siege, and even that they will rethink in a day or two. I am not ready to give up.
But in the meantime, it sure is nice to have you ladies here.
I wish I could fry us all up some bacon!
July 8, 2008 at 2:55 pm
I’ve been a lurker at Jez for a while, and, like so many others, I’ve come over here out of frustration over this recent debacle. More specifically, I came over to thank NeverNikki for this line in one of her comments; it was exactly what needed to be said:
“You know what the problem is? We want people to see us as women, but we act like little girls.”
Yes. Yes! Thank you. Tracie and Moe put on an extraordinary display of foolishness and immaturity. Who on earth goes to an interview drunk? Stop telling me what the title of the segment is. I don’t care that it’s called Thinking and Drinking. If the latter makes you incapable of the former, then stick to club soda when you’re about to make a public appearance. An amazing suggestion, I know.
I was also less than impressed by Winstead, who struck me as 1) not a very good interviewer, 2) unpleasantly gleeful in her blog post, and 3) ALSO irresponsible in some of the comments she made. I’m a little surprised that the abortion section of the tape has mostly escaped discussion. Of course I don’t think that a woman should ever feel ashamed of having had an abortion or feel like she can’t speak openly about her experiences, but I also don’t think that glibness is the best tack on the subject. “Terminator 3″? Oh. Oh, no, no, no. Please, no. Please do not forward the WRONG perception that abortion is birth control for the callous and foolhardy. Please do not hand our opponents that weapon. They do a fine job of fighting choice without our help.
I think that Tracie and Moe’s awful comments about rape have been covered pretty extensively, so I’ll just say that I agree with most of what’s been said, including that Winstead was wrong to tell a rape victim how she should have behaved. But, you know, that pales in comparison to “If only women weren’t such dumb bitches, rape wouldn’t happen.” Nice job, SM.
Finally, I don’t understand why this is being set up as a generation gap. I’m nineteen years old, and I’m a feminist. And I don’t think that effective fights against sexism are waged with drunken antics, unprotected sex, or weak, egotistical argument unwilling to brook opposition.
Anyway, I’m glad to see what you’re doing here at BCP. Now that I’m here, I think I’ll stick around.
July 8, 2008 at 2:58 pm
@KittenFluff: Yeah, isn’t that “convenient”, that most of the people who were commenting on it before were banned?
(commences making chicken noises)
July 8, 2008 at 3:01 pm
Wow, LaLouve. You’re 19? And this is one of the most intelligent and reasoned things I have read on this whole thing.
Bravo. I am heartened and inspired.
July 8, 2008 at 3:05 pm
Another former Jez commenter delurking to say that I was so glad to read this post. I will keep reading Megan’s posts because i really enjoy her writing but otherwise, I’m out of there. Thanks for keeping up the vision, ladies.
July 8, 2008 at 3:05 pm
You know you’re doing something wrong as a website when all of your best commenters flee.
July 8, 2008 at 3:08 pm
Thank you! I’m sorry it got so long.
July 8, 2008 at 3:11 pm
@trixie: Hey, I’m a bit of a pessimist today. If I’m not down about Jez, I’ll be down about the sun shining, or the green grass; I’ve got imagination on my side!
July 8, 2008 at 3:12 pm
Dear Mayor–you know I dont do none of that new fangled interwbs shenanigans. Them’s the voodoo.
ArmCandy–Evanston. I know. Thats where I introduced the boy to the Steakburger. Nom nom nom. [Sorry BAngieB! I cant help it!]
And LaLouve, I agree with you. In a twisted way I’m glad this situation arose because it helped me find words for what frustrates me about what the two of them [esp. Tracie] represent–irresponsibility and asshattery being proudly displayed under the banner of feminism and liberation. Which I think just does everyone a disservice.
July 8, 2008 at 3:14 pm
another lurker here. I just wanted to give kudos to LaLouve, you’ve summed up a lot of what I’ve felt/wanted to say about what’s going on over at Jezebel. I came over here to avoid the maelstrom and I must say it’s a pretty nice place.
July 8, 2008 at 3:15 pm
@ gecko
Wait, whaaat? There’s a Sonic now open in the Twin Cities!?! Guess I know where I’m dragging the BF for din-din tonight.
July 8, 2008 at 3:15 pm
@ kadinsky:
I’ve never heard the term VikQueen used outside of my family. I like you! We’ll make it safe for you over here. Just don’t refer to bubblers or soda, and we’ll blend you into the crowd.
@ LaLouve:
Can I second the love for what you wrote? It’s wonderful to see a youngun (I’m one too, kinda) write so thoughtfully about the issue.
July 8, 2008 at 3:16 pm
@NeverNikki That was truly, truly awesome!
I hate that Tracie’s whole attitude and schtick is her “Fuck you! I’ll do what I want!! [snaps]” argument, which is resoundingly similar to my three year old throwing a tantrum (with out the F U!, of course, she’s way classier than that!). I occasionally read her blog and when she’s not talking about sex, she just comes across as vapid and entitled and self-absorbed. I haven’t liked any of her posts on that other website that shall not be named in quite awhile, either.
Soo glad to find all y’all here! Even if I am a bit late…
July 8, 2008 at 3:19 pm
I think I’ll just blame Sex and the City and be done with it.
Tracie, you are no Samantha.
July 8, 2008 at 3:24 pm
@LaLouve: If this were a cheesy teen flick, I’d be the one starting the slow clap that would build to furious, uproarious cheering and applause.
Jez is dead to me. It’s a shell of its former self and just painful to read lately. I feel rather sorry for Moe, but can’t fucking stand Tracie these days. Her irresponsibility was hard enough to take, and I was okay just avoiding her posts before, but the “I haven’t been raped because I’m smart” bullshit just makes my blood boil, and Anna’s post today was way too fucking little way too late.
July 8, 2008 at 3:33 pm
Wow, the banning is straight out of high school. Seriously.
You know, if this was a “first offense” kind of thing and dealt with immediately, I think it would have made a world of difference. But there have been too many missteps, especially by SM, that were handled like a 12-year-old. Any yeah. If you’re going to publicly represent your employer, do it sober.
It’s one thing to speak your mind and not give a shit. In the same vein, it’s my right to not want to support that by page views.
I tried reading some Jezebel today, but really, it’s just not the same.
Thanks for the post Trixie.
So, what did everybody else get banned for?
July 8, 2008 at 3:38 pm
@Tea Em Eff Gee: And here I thought she was channeling Cartman!
July 8, 2008 at 3:40 pm
Being a meanie, apparently.
July 8, 2008 at 3:53 pm
I have no idea, just came today and was banned. I guess it was for harshly criticizing Tracie in a blog last night. Whatever, I was holding back.
It cracks me up that the post before this incident on her personal website says, “I despise censorship in any form whatsoever…”
July 8, 2008 at 3:53 pm
@Trixie – Hi to you too! Kisses to all the Buttercups.
@LaLouve – Would you laugh if I said I have more hope for the future knowing there are 19-year olds who are as smart as you? I would like to buy you a drink – in two years. How about some pie for now?
July 8, 2008 at 4:01 pm
@gecko: You have a Krispy Kreme in Minnesota? That makes me soooo mad. I am from NC, the home state of Krispy Kreme, and since I moved to New Orleans, I am much closer to a Krispy Kreme that I ever was back home.
Aaaaaand now, I want one of those milkshake-ice-cream-brownie desserts from Steak and Shake.
July 8, 2008 at 4:02 pm
Look, NeverNikki, I am not going to explain this to you again.
You nom nom nom babies, puppies, kitties, and other baby animals.
You DO NOT nom nom nom food or men.
Don’t push me…
July 8, 2008 at 4:02 pm
Awww. I want a Steak n’ Shake chicken fingers basket! Nay, I’ve EARNED a chicken fingers basket.
Oh, SinRoo et al? Thanks for Buttercups. I give you kiss. Mwah!
July 8, 2008 at 4:05 pm
Okay, this is TMGF in my new disguise, but I really, really want to know how all you wenches have CAPITAL LETTERS in your names when wordpress kept telling me “only lowercase letters, kthxbai!” *jealous*
@justT – yeah…but Cartman is a lot more self-aware than our SM.
July 8, 2008 at 4:06 pm
Ummm….at the risk of sounding like an obsessed ex, is anyone just a wee curious about what the COTDs will be?
‘Cause, I’m not either.
July 8, 2008 at 4:11 pm
Bravo, LaLouve. You are wise beyond your years.:)
July 8, 2008 at 4:15 pm
@NN – Um, not that I care EITHER…but it’s 5:13 and COTD isn’t up. Most popular stories is usually right after. I’m thinking they might be skippin’ it in these troubled times.
July 8, 2008 at 4:17 pm
Blondegrlz–I love you. Thank you for sharing in my masochism.
I crown you banned jezzie of the day. here is your scepter.
July 8, 2008 at 4:20 pm
NeverNikki, I am so glad you’re here. I love it when you say “whilst.”
July 8, 2008 at 4:31 pm
NeverNikki – Awwww, I heart you and your scepter but as I didn’t earn it I cannot accept. I’m pretty sure it belongs to you.
July 8, 2008 at 4:58 pm
BAngieB–I just saw your response to the nom nom post about three minutes ago. I just stopped laughing.
Why, oh why must the nom nom tear our love asunder?! ;)
July 8, 2008 at 5:11 pm
Look, nevernikki, fall in line. That is how it has always been, and that is how it shall always be. You are gonna have to find a different saying for food/grown people.
Furthermore, there is STILL no ugly talk about my pretty, pretty girl.
July 8, 2008 at 5:13 pm
My only regret about this week is that Alex Balk is on vacation and we are thus deprived of a short, pity but devastating mere sentence on the whole affair, over on his Tumblr, that would be so funny I would spit up my NyQuil.
July 8, 2008 at 5:14 pm
That should read PITHY. Oh, Sarah. What good is a rapier wit if you have fingers like week-old unrefrigerated organic baby zucchini?
July 8, 2008 at 5:19 pm
You drive a hard bargain. I respectfully submit the following as an appropriate substitute:
Num num num.
I also submit:
Yummy mummy!
Snarf snarf snarf!
And mom mom mom [wait. I withdraw that due to creepiness]
please take these under consideration and let me know your thoughts. i look forward to future collaborations.
Sincerely,
NeverNikki, Esq.
July 8, 2008 at 6:28 pm
For a site that pokes fun at public figures, they sure are sensitive about being poked at now since they are public figures.
Irony. My favorite sin.
July 8, 2008 at 6:38 pm
I’m not familiar with Jezebel, but I’m just as disturbed by, “…this ridiculously false notion that “feminism” means you’ve got free reign to be spectacularly irresponsible, ill-informed and insensitive — and openly callous and rude to those who express disagreement — and to other women, to boot, including those who were personally and sincerely offended by what you’ve expressed.”
It’s everywhere, and I think it’s as anti-feminist as it gets. Women and girls encouraged to lower their standards.
When did misogynistic women get the ‘feminist’ title? Scary stuff.
July 8, 2008 at 6:45 pm
Really good reaction on Salon: http://www.salon.com/mwt/broadsheet/2008/07/08/jezebels/
July 8, 2008 at 6:47 pm
oh my gosh!
I can’t believe that they would say things like that!
Especially when there are younger girls reading.
Jeez.
I have cousins that are growing into their teens, and to even suggest that something like that is OK to them, kinda makes me want to brain these people!
I’m a firm beleiver in feminism, and while I’m not even 18 yet, I know that those things are most definately not feminist (the things they said), and what you put up, what feminism REALLY stands for, That’s something that kids should be reading.
Not the other trash.
July 8, 2008 at 6:58 pm
@HistoricUpstart – Thanks for the link. That just saved me from trying to explain this all to my roommate.
July 8, 2008 at 7:00 pm
@historic: Thank you for this. My fave tidbits:
“As Winstead veers away from jokes and becomes more serious, they refuse to abandon their me-so-drunk-and-horny patter, like rebellious high school students who simply will not take the teacher’s assignment seriously.”
“I go back and forth from wanting to slap [Moe] to wanting to hug her.”
I’m sensing a Gawker pattern: first Emily, now Tracie & Moe, and from what I hear on the wind, that Deadspin guy gets served a few times on Bob Costas Live.
July 8, 2008 at 7:00 pm
you guys are making me wonder how i will live without cookout when i leave NC?
July 8, 2008 at 7:16 pm
@CeeJeeMcBeeGee:
Yeah, I think the line that struck me the most was this: “Moe and Tracie probably do know this; they’re just not interested in or willing to have the conversation.”
This is why I am so infuriated. As an inner-city high school teacher who has dedicated my life to battling misogyny and racism on the front lines, it just shows so much fucking privilege and entitlement for these two women to be so unwilling to use their power for good instead of evil. I hate this too-cool-for-school attitude. They have the lovely OPTION not to care, most of us DO NOT! Some of us feel some sort of obligation to our fellow humans to leave this world a bit better than how we found it. What a waste those two are. Good riddance.
July 8, 2008 at 7:19 pm
Wow, Keelee, you’ve got lucky cousins for having someone as smart and savvy as you in their lives. I can’t tell you how relieved your comment just made me feel.
July 8, 2008 at 7:25 pm
@Historic: Word. Privileged, entitled, and smug are great qualifiers for their attitudes.
I know for a fact that if any one of us appeared on a TV show representative of our employer/company and behaved that way, we’d have a lot of shit to answer for.
July 8, 2008 at 7:30 pm
@HistoricUpstart: Exactly. Here they have this incredible opportunity to influence thousands of young women, to have their writing read all over the world- and they squander it, and use their power in a negative rather than a positive way. I currently feel mostly pity for Moe, but I think Tracie, who is worshipped by young women (and uses that influence to spread sexual misinformation and misconceptions) is at best irresponsible. At worst, she’s endangering young womens’ lives, and I don’t say it lightly.
July 8, 2008 at 7:36 pm
@CeeJeeMcBeeGee: Seriously, I have to watch my internet talk to be sure I don’t mention my employer…if I went on a TV show and acted like they did? Fired before I get home.
July 8, 2008 at 7:38 pm
Hey ladies! So I’m not boycotting Jezebel like some of you, but it’s totally ridiculous that so many of our best commenters got banned and we can’t even talk about it…we have to exchange secret messages about who’s been “disappeared.”
Viva Las Desaparecidas!
July 8, 2008 at 7:42 pm
@ronaldpagan:heyyyy! I got your message on Jez, but I couldn’t respond, being banninated. Welcome!
July 8, 2008 at 7:51 pm
@katastic: I could write people messages when I was banninated (which was for a much less worthy cause.)
Those of you who are staying away from Jez, what would it take to get you back? I’d be happy if they just admitted their purge was wrong and let all you wonderful people comment again. And a groveling note from SM would be appreciated, but let’s not kid ourselves.
I love Jezebel but I’m not gonna hang out there much if the only people there are Slut Machine and her teenage groupies.
July 8, 2008 at 8:03 pm
@ronaldpagan: Yay, ronald pagan is here!
July 8, 2008 at 8:04 pm
@ergggg: I miss Cookout. Although I lived in Chapel Hill, which means even when I was in NC, I had to go out of my way to get there. My parents have had a few health problems in the past year, requiring non-emergency surgery, and I would actually get excited when they went to the hospital, b/c Cookout is thisclose to Durham Regional. And exit 147 on I-85/40 is my favorite.
Now in addition to my Steak & Shake craving, I also want a Cookout milkshake.
And @ronaldpagan: I hate to be all conservative or protective, but it actually bothers me that there are impressionable young girls on jezebel who look up to Slut Machine. There are some girls who have confessed to being teens who are very smart and well-spoken, but I’m sure there are others who are seeing her posts and being all, yay, herpes is no biggie! I mean, you don’t even need to tell your partner! I knew my parents/sex ed pamplets/public awareness ads were bullshitting me! And that disturbs me.
July 8, 2008 at 8:18 pm
Y’all, I’m with ronaldpagan (as usual). Please take a break if you need to–whether self-imposed or Hortense-imposed–but come back soon! I miss y’all and it was deadly in the comments today what with all the regulars being gone.
I don’t want SM to be our Yoko and break up an excellent band. So come back. Please, please? Ain’t too proud to beg…
July 8, 2008 at 8:21 pm
@dictator4life: One of the first things I read on Jezebel was SM’s herpes post, and all the comments kissing her ass, and it scared me away from the site for another few months. I didn’t want to read a blog frequented by girls who think feminism means never having to say you have herpes.
Glad I gave it another shot, because it’s a great site, even if I was never there for the alleged glory days…most of the contributors are fantastic. Shit, I even like Moe a lot. She was disappointing in the interview too, and disappointing in her lack of response, but I can get over it. As for SM, I didn’t want to see her fired or anything, but now it wouldn’t exactly break my heart…love her writing, loved – for example – her Vice article, but maybe she’d be better suited for something like Vice that NO ONE TAKES SERIOUSLY.
The most disappointing thing is the way Jezebel’s handling the criticism.
July 8, 2008 at 8:22 pm
…and it feels really good to be here where this criticism can get out in the open and no one is getting executed for it.
PS: What exactly is this site? It seems cool but I haven’t looked around yet…too busy bitching…
July 8, 2008 at 8:37 pm
Too bad I missed the big discussion, but here’s something else we’re not allowed to talk about on Jezebel:
http://www.onedatatime.com/dick_liker/2008/06/rape-can-be-funny.html
Way to ignore the issue, Trace. We weren’t upset because you said “dyke”, we were upset because you said “smart girls don’t get raped.” And we’re not trying to, like, censor you. You’re kind of trying to, like, censor us, by, like, banning the people who respond to your interview in the blunt and explicit terms you love so well. Hate to be all entitled “ooh I comment on a blog” but that post bothered me.
July 8, 2008 at 8:39 pm
@CeeJee:
I know, right?? Most people in this world have to face actual consequences for their actions! It really pisses me off that clearly neither Tracie or Moe are going to have to pay for their stupidity and immaturity in any way whatsoever.
July 8, 2008 at 8:55 pm
RonaldPagan!! Thanks for your message darling. I tried to write you back but I have been put in Jezebel solitary confinement.
HistoricUpstart– I couldnt agree with you more. And the frustration will only grow when I see those two vapid twits blathering on about how such and such person in the media said such and such thing and oh gee, what a wretched person such and such is!
I am reminded of something Plato once said. He said, “Stupid people are fucking stupid.”
July 8, 2008 at 8:56 pm
…and Tracie Egan, who goes by the moniker “Slut Machine.” (I believe that’s a Shakespeare reference.)…
LOL!!!
…the schtick hit the fan…
LOL!!!
*holds face in semi-pain*
Gawd, that was a funny article at Salon. Whew!
July 8, 2008 at 8:59 pm
I wonder if Anna will take all this more seriously once she realizes that “legit” sites are picking up on this. I have this urge to submit the trainwreck clips to VH1’s Best Week Ever or something.
July 8, 2008 at 9:07 pm
Wow, this is where all the good writers went! I snooped on other people’s commenter backgrounds to try and figure it out… I feel like a regular super-sleuth!
Just delurking like everyone else to say hi, I will be visiting here regularly, and Jez is making me sad too.
I like you people.
July 8, 2008 at 9:12 pm
Thanks for the appreciation and Plato quote Nikki! This site scares me a little because everyone is all “Let’s get rid of the new commenters”, of which I am one.
PS: Hey Salon, never thought I’d be siding with you boomers over Jezebel. But stop acting like Tracie is the first woman ever to have a lot of sex and be unapologetic about it. Bitch please. She’s good at cultivating the persona and writing about it but it’s not like being female and promiscuous is some revolutionary thing that no one has ever done before.
July 8, 2008 at 9:14 pm
Oh, and, that is really lame that people are banned not only from commenting but from sending messages to people. Are they worried about some kind of guerilla uprising or something? It’s just a fucking website, and even though I’m taking this drama way too seriously too, I’m not taking it anywhere near as seriously as whoever’s out there going “KATASTIC MUST BE SILENCED.”
July 8, 2008 at 9:18 pm
I appreciated Moe’s explanation that was buried in her post about embarrassing dads. It was very different from anything else I’ve read of hers and it didn’t seem like blatant sympathy-bait like Tracie’s “okay, I lied; I do have sex to fill a void– don’t hit me!!!” post from yesterday (which would’ve been a cool topic if it wasn’t so conveniently timed).
It was even more well-organized than usual. No run-on sentences or anything.
I kept giving Tracie the benefit of a doubt before, that maybe her stubbornness was just a defense mechanism that she used when people personally attacked her, but no one made the kinds of comments about her sexuality that have been hurled at her in the past and she was still an asshole about all the valid criticism she received in her personal blog. Just completely callous and nasty! “Then my friend started talking about her rape and that shit got boring so I checked out and drank some more. I think that’s how everybody felt. Rape’s boring. Where are my Doritos?”
The thing ,I’d been rooting for her. I’d like to see her succeed as an articulate, sex-positive voice. But she isn’t sex positive, just silly. I’m so disappointed.
July 8, 2008 at 9:24 pm
Hey Ninja, I don’t really see Moe’s post about her dad as having anything to do with the Incident. It explains a couple things about why she acts the way she does and how conflicted she feels about it, but def skirted the real issues…it was a very nice post (like I’ve been saying, I like Moe), but I don’t think it counts as addressing the things that went down. I kind of think a post being open about the entire thing is coming, though…she’s just not ready to put it up yet, and I did feel for her during a lot of that interview.
As for SM: BAZAM!
July 8, 2008 at 9:26 pm
@ robot ninja spy: I think I’d be more on board with the sex-positive angle if that was but one facet of a well-rounded feminist ethos/personal philosophy.
Not to show my creaky old age, but if you look at the riot grrl feminists of the 90s, they were sex-positive, but they were also anti-consumer, pro-artist, and pro-political. Being unapologetic about who they had sex with and under what conditions was only part of an over “Never apologize; take those rights” attitude.
Whereas with Tracie, I have always gotten the impression that her alleged “feminism” begins and ends in her vag. This doesn’t make her sex positive. This makes her the college freshman on your dorm hall who has just discovered A) sleepovers and B) oral sex, and is convinced she’s the first person on earth to be daring enough to talk about it.
July 8, 2008 at 9:28 pm
Ron, thanks for your message. I know, what did I write that got me banned? That SM has no empathy? That I like her bangs? When I mentioned raping puppies? It’s not like I called her names or anything. I was completely restrained.
The whole thing just seems so damned arbitrary. I’m glad you came over here to say hi.
July 8, 2008 at 9:28 pm
Erm, not to canonize riot grrls feminists and the 1990s. Just to provide a little perspective on where this sex-positive party got started. (Now where’s my copy of Manifesta — that’ll tackle it too.)
Also, going by what’s cookin’ in this comments klatch, it’s like the feminist awesomeness isn’t confined to any one generation.
July 8, 2008 at 9:37 pm
Hey Marvelous, the banning was absolutely arbitrary and I’m enjoying being here. Too bad I didn’t make it when people were actually around.
Sally, women have been having a lot of sex and enjoying it since, at the latest, Cleopatra. Also, I am jealous of your stoned avatar.
July 8, 2008 at 9:43 pm
@ronaldpagan: I’m fantasizing that I was dismissed by SM herself BAZAM style. Sigh. I feel more and more angry about this, not less. I know I have to let it go. Life goes on.
PS. I LOVE my avatar. Monocles rule!
July 8, 2008 at 9:43 pm
Ron- I get what you’re saying, but I also don’t think she’d have felt the need to explain her background and her take on feminism and make all those references about throwing stones otherwise. And I’d be content if she left it at that, because I think a more direct response from either of them would be another 1100+ comments of the same things we’ve been saying all day, just with SM popping in once in awhile to be all, “[rns' real name here], go crawl under your rock BAZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZAAM!!! and banning” everyone who didn’t compliment her bangs.
Also Sally, you make some amazing points. I get that she’s the pop culture and sex writer, but at least in the non-apology post in which she laid out the tenets of her believes, she was just like, “Unicorns! Woo-hoo! I’m a lady!” Again, another awesome opportunity to show us what else she can do, and she chose to b.s. The thing is, I don’t think she lacks the mental capacity to say something meaningful. I think she lacks the will. That might be worse.
But this site is awesome! Woo! Unicorns! And deep thoughts!
July 8, 2008 at 9:48 pm
Wow, I’ve been not completing sentences before going into the next one ever since about 7 p.m. I meant, at least in the non-apology post she could’ve departed from her usual themes and take the opportunity to discuss other ways she lives feminism. The best she could do was say she’s always written for feminist publications and that doesn’t really tell us much.
I’m going to watch silliness on tv and go to sleep. Thanks everyone! See you tomorrow!
July 8, 2008 at 9:50 pm
The unicorn thing was lost on me. In my defense, I did read the post when I was letting my bangs grow out, so I dunno. Whole thing felt like this forced, contrived, poorly written mea culpa.
Alright kiddos, mama has a big day tomorrow and needs her sleepy time. lLl of you eat your vegetables, say your prayers, and dont act like a pathetic drunken slob on the interwebs. Got it? Okay. Night night dearies. Kiss you on the head.
And P.S.–In my weird way, I love all of you. Thanks for the talks. I HATE to use a Meg Ryan quote, but she sums it up perfectly when she said “Talking about nothing with you has meant more to me than talking about something with anybody else.” That rings true for me today. :)
July 8, 2008 at 9:57 pm
Thanks for abandoning me, hos! My friends called and were like “wanna get drunk?” and I was like, “Naw, I think I’ll stay here tonight and bitch about feminism.” Truly pathetic.
Anyway, I do think Moe made some good points about where she’s coming from, and any other time it would have been a beautiful essay (as Tracie’s would have yesterday). But talking vaguely about “pursuit of the truth” doesn’t really tell us where some of the things she said in that interview were coming from. It was still way moving, and she’s taking this shit way hard. I feel bad for her.
July 8, 2008 at 9:59 pm
@SallyFloyd: “I think I’d be more on board with the sex-positive angle if that was but one facet of a well-rounded feminist ethos/personal philosophy.”
I am in complete agreement with everything you said – the endless validating of “my kind of feminism” with yet another tale of fucking in a stall does not a feminist make.
July 8, 2008 at 10:07 pm
I’m kinda late to this particular party, and don’t have anything to add regarding Moe and Tracie except at the end of the day, I feel bad for both of ‘em. I agree with everything else that was said.
I didn’t get banned, but I’m going to be visiting Jezebel a hell of a lot less often. I’ve never been down with Tracie’s opinions, so not reading her posts won’t be much of a change. They’re all about crap TV anyway.
July 8, 2008 at 10:11 pm
Kate, Kate, Judge Judy is NOT crap TV.
Sucks that SM’s crap TV is still getting more comments than News Roundup, but it was kind of a boring News Roundup today.
July 8, 2008 at 10:20 pm
WTF?
MyrtleBeachBum are you there?…Trixie, Sin, Kadinsky?… Panda, Angie?…Someone hold me.
I don’t who threw out the sex positive SM comment here but being sex positive doesn’t mean that you’re positive you want to have sex. It means you have what is perceived as a healthy attitude toward your sexuality. I doubt it’s a healthy attitude to not tell partners you have an STD especially when transmission can occur from an infected partner who does not have a visible sore. I KNOW old news but it is still bugging the shit out of me.
Oh and can someone tell Tracie the term “sex positive” has been around since the 1950’s. Yes it is a term that has been coming more into cultural awareness in the last decade or so but it’s NOT some new feminist idea for some new generation of hip can’t be bothered UN-feminist feminists.
Again, WTF people!
July 8, 2008 at 10:28 pm
Three hundred twenty-two comments…
God bless BCP.
July 8, 2008 at 10:34 pm
@Pickles: I am here. And I will hold you. Hold you. Never let you go until I’ve told you. Told you. What you want to know and then I’ll just hold you. Hold you. Make me tell you I’m in love with you.
Ahem.
I would tell Tracie, but it’s late, I’m all out of EXTREME Gatorade, and I lack the energy to body check her army of fangirls to get through to her. So just let her think she invented “sex positive.” And pray that she doesn’t stumble upon HIV positive while she’s at it.
Such as. (TM BangieB).
July 8, 2008 at 10:38 pm
Ah, man, I wanna get banned! All the Kewl Kidz are doin’ it.
July 8, 2008 at 10:40 pm
This is such a cute blog. It’s full of chick flicks and funny sex stories and buttercups, but the people here don’t think it’s cute to go “Hee hee hee, hipsters don’t rape.” Nice work girls! Can I stick around even if I didn’t vote for Hillary?
July 8, 2008 at 10:45 pm
@MyrtleBeachBum: dude, we don’t even have a Comment of The Day, but you just fucking won BCP Comment Of The Day for that.
for your prize you may pick the location and select the butter. the water will of course, be warm.
July 8, 2008 at 10:51 pm
Okay, so, I’m a bit worried about being welcome here but I will just say the following: please don’t surrender the Jez space to the loads of “crap thinking from a commenter” occupying the threads there at times. I know that this whole episode has left a sour taste in everybody’s mouth, mine too, and this spate of banning hasn’t really helped because it’s made this into something it’s not about. If everybody just takes off to their own corners as a result that will be by far worse than whatever drunken ramblings any of the editors can come up with.
I have tussled with some of y’all before, and, you know, have lived to regret some things I’ve said at Jez. Even if you don’t remember me, I remember you, because I remember having conversations with you on Jez that actually mattered. And I would like to keep that going.
And I continue to think that the best way to “get back at” crap thinking is to combat it wherever it appears. Which is why I’ll keep on at Jez even though I hate hate hate what happened here.
Anyway, not that anyone owes anyone anything, but just dropping by to say what I think, FWIW. Which is undoubtedly very little.
July 8, 2008 at 10:52 pm
@Cameron: Not only that, but all of the comments are worth reading. I don’t feel that I’ve wasted a minute (and I’ve spent quite a few here today) of my time sifting through 300+ comments to find the value, the snark and the smart. Thank you all for being your witty, wonderful selves.
July 8, 2008 at 10:54 pm
Hey Cooper, I’ve just been sifting through the comments for the anger. The righteous, righteous anger. Feels good.
July 8, 2008 at 10:58 pm
wow, I cam back and this post had exploded! I’m glad so many lovable commenters migrated over here, and to whomever told Tracie “Fuck you” (I believe it was Katastic) you are my new hero.
July 8, 2008 at 11:08 pm
NeverNikki was the one who told Tracie “Fuck you.”
July 8, 2008 at 11:15 pm
PilgrimSoul, I see what you’re saying, but also understand why a lot of people don’t want to hang out on the site anymore. Some people are doing it to make a statement, but I think others are doing it because they just don’t like Jezebel and its staff (same reason I don’t watch Fox News), and this may have been what it took to close the deal.
Still hope most of our good commenters come back eventually, if only for Megan and Dodai. (And Jessica, Sadie, Maria, etc.)
July 8, 2008 at 11:22 pm
i would never get drunk while on a show and representing my employer (like nearly everyone else, my ass would be fired) but more importantly, i would never get drunk while on a show representing myself. that’s what was so disappointing here- two seemingly intelligent women chose to represent themselves as drunken idiots in a public forum. and i hope this doesn’t sound too self-righteous (god knows i enjoy drinking in my private life), but it really is sad.
and it royally sucks that so many of you were banned. i found myself cheering out loud at some of your comments. building an “army of sycophants” creates an incredibly boring site.
July 8, 2008 at 11:31 pm
Whew. (Big breath)
I started to write a really long, personal post because I’ve been online for the better part of the day, reading about all this, exhilarated, fascinated, sickened–all while tending to my 5 month old daughter.
Which is a weird experience–to try and unpack why this incident felt so significant while also trying to entertain a darling little baby girl.
The two have something to do with one another in my head, but I don’t know what exactly. I guess I’m already thinking about what kind of woman I hope my daughter will someday be–or at least what choices will be available to her.
I suppose once could argue that the feminist movement has given us the right to sound just as drunken and stupid as some men sound, and to be as flip about the victimization of women as some men are, and to brag about our sexual exploits–degrading to our humanity as that might be–as some men do, and perhaps that is its own kind of victory, its own kind of equality.
But how sorry I felt for Moe and Tracie, how stupid they sounded, how far from a true sense of and respect for themselves they seemed.
My mother always says “To whom much is given, much is expected.”
I can’t connect the dots well this late in the evening, but I feel better having put some of my sense of this out there. So thank you to anyone who is reading this.
And thanks for this thread, and website. Jezebel was a significant part of my getting through a rough pregnancy and recovery–so I have felt particularly sad in the face of its decline.
July 8, 2008 at 11:38 pm
@texylady: i appreciate your perspective, thank you for sharing that.
also, welcome to BCP :)
July 8, 2008 at 11:43 pm
Texy, beautiful post, although I don’t agree with everything you’ve said. I really do think it can be a sign of equality when women are allowed to be trash-talking, hard-drinking, sexual-encounter-bragging bitches. I like acting like that sometimes and I’m glad it’s not the 50’s where doing so would make me less of a lady.
But you’re RIGHT ON that there seemed to be nothing empowering or self-respecting about the lifestyle Moe and Tracie were so eager to represent the other night. They both seemed completely uncomfortable and miserable. Hope your daughter doesn’t grow up idolizing that kind of shit, but I’m sure you’ll raise her better than that.
July 8, 2008 at 11:44 pm
I’m a lurker! *waving hands*
Where do I start? I used to love Jezebel. I came across it last summer when I was interning with nothing to do. I was in love with all these smart women and how they wrote about women’s issues. I didn’t get that it was a feminist blog until a month later (I know duh!). I used to read during class, work and while watching TV. I never wanted to miss out on all the inside jokes and great commentary. I then became a commenter. I’m not as snarky and smart as you women, but I wanted to add my 2 cents. I also really liked SM. I thought it was cool how she owned her sexuality. But then she turned me off with that, “I don’t use condoms and I don’t tell people I have herpes” shit. That made me so mad that instead of posting a comment I just wrote about it in my personal blog. Then I started to notice how all her post were so self involved, but I refuse to give up the love for her. Then Rapegate 2008 happened and I’m not so into anymore. It has sickened me that she makes such dismissive comments about rape. And her half ass apology, she should have kept that shit.
I have noticed that all the great writing is being overshadowed by these two women. Moe pieces are always too long and the ramble on and on and barely makes sense. I can never fully grasp what she is trying to say. I also thought ok cool Pot Psychology! I was a fan! But I think within the last week, I have been not so into it. I think its the whole, “SM how do you get your makeup and ur clothes are so cute <3″ shit that is bothering me.
Anywho let me wrap this up. I am glad to see all the orginals who made me laugh last year at my sucky internship over here. When I noticed that most of you guys had left, I knew there was not much left for me to see over there.
July 9, 2008 at 12:08 am
ronaldpagan, you’re right. I actually didn’t phrase it correctly–I genuinely do think that it can be argued, as in it is a valid point that–as you said–having the right to be “trash-talking, hard-drinking, sexual-encounter-bragging bitches” is a good evolution that feminism prompted.
I totally trash-talk, hard-drink, and sexual-encounter-brag with the best of them, and am glad I can.
But somehow this didn’t feel like that–you know?
Thanks for the warm welcome. I really do appreciate it.
July 9, 2008 at 12:10 am
You know, I don’t read every article on Jezebel. Less than half of it appeals to me, but the half that does is worth it. So I didn’t watch the clip when it was fresh, and I didn’t pay any attention to the follow-up today until a friend pointed me to it. And I have to say, first in defense of the editors, that a show called Thinking and Drinking should expect drunkenly stupid guests saying drunkenly stupid things.
But more importantly, in defense of myself and everyone who was offended by these two, that was a STUPID thing to do and everything they said was out of line. What’s a tasteless joke between friends? Nothing. What’s a tasteless joke in a public forum while you represent — willingly or not — the “feminist” site that calls out others for not taking rape seriously and even joking about? Stupid, trashy, obnoxious, self-centered, and two-faced.
July 9, 2008 at 12:15 am
Texylady, absolutely right. They didn’t seem to own that shit at all…they seemed to be tied to traditional gender roles, in an odd way. Hence the ditziness. When Moe said she didn’t call herself a feminist because she wanted guys to date her, I thought that was funny and everything (certainly not something to get up in arms about), but there’s probably some truth there deep down. They’re scared to be serious about feminist issues because it goes against their fun-loving image, but they just come off as that much more insecure, conflicted, and, just, sad.
One more rant and then I’ll go away.
July 9, 2008 at 12:30 am
OK I can’t even bring myself to write my rant because this thread is such a warm, fuzzy, circlejerking lovefest.
But sorry…I have no right to speculate about Moe and Tracie’s inner lives, and I’d resent a total stranger doing so after watching a video of me. That was the impression I got, but I don’t know them, so it’s out of line.
Anyway it’s FINALLY late enough to go to bed. Goodnight, wonderful people. And please consider coming back to Jezebel because it will suck without you.
July 9, 2008 at 12:49 am
PSYCH! One more thing to say. I was realizing that most of my favorite commenters are the ones who took this issue the hardest. We get in heated disagreements about a lot of things: presidential candidates, abortion rights, religion, even certain aspects of rape…you get the idea. So I think it says something that pretty much all the commenters I respect are in total agreement about this issue. I think it comes down to feminism. There is a LOT of room for difference of opinions, but there are certain things that are NEVER gonna fly if you’re actually a feminist. Blah blah blah love love love bedtime!
July 9, 2008 at 1:07 am
HeliosHyperion said: “a show called Thinking and Drinking should expect drunkenly stupid guests saying drunkenly stupid things.”
Yeah, I think you’re right. I think that Winstead was fishing for the bad interview. But! There’s a big difference between what the show should expect and what the guests should deliver. Not for Thinking and Drinking, but for themselves. Like donna martin said, “i would never get drunk while on a show and representing my employer . . . but more importantly, i would never get drunk while on a show representing myself.”
And not just for themselves, but for other women–other young feminists, especially. Now, maybe I’m weird for seeing a responsibility where none exists, but here’s why I do (I think): I went to college early, and I knew that a lot of my fellow students would assume I was immature. So I tried to act PARTICULARLY mature, and I was able to convince people that I did belong there as much as they did. Maybe it was unfair that I had to prove myself, but I had to, and I did, and it was fine.
Women still have to prove themselves–perhaps not every second of every day, but certainly in the professional arena.
July 9, 2008 at 1:47 am
LaLouve & HeliosHyperion the name/title of the show is irrelevant. This show is known for it’s format and that doesn’t mean get drunk even if drinking is involved and I would bet that the drinking is really more for the audience then the guests. If anyone had even bothered to prepare for what they were embarking on maybe they could have pulled their heads out of their asses and pulled it off. BUT NO.
A simple perusal of the shows website might have been a good starting point.
Oh look a clue. From the page ABOUT US: “Past guests have included Rachel Maddow, Mark Crispin Miller, Roseanne, Marie Wilson, Ted Rall, Paul Reikoff, Michael Signorile, Chuck D, David Rees, Rachel Sklar, Philip Dray, John Bowe, Todd Hanson, and more.
The members of the Shoot the Messenger ensemble come from The Daily Show, Air America Radio, National Lampoon, Upright Citizen Brigade, Second City, Huffington Post, and represent some of the best political comics, writers, actors, filmmakers, and producers working today.”
Winstead was not “fishing” for a bad interview. The producer who booked Tracie and Moe and did the pre-interview discussed the show with them or at least tried to discuss the show. Tracie was the one that told the producer RAPE was a big topic. Neither Tracie or Moe said anything that they both have not written about for public consumption. The difference was we all had to watch it come out of their mouths like bad verbal diarrhea coupled with projectile verbal vomiting. Seeing and hearing it was not pretty. It was repulsive.
July 9, 2008 at 2:17 am
@picklesinmytuna: Exactly! I’ll be the first to admit that I imbibe more than I should, but I recognize the line between “drinking” and “getting wasted”. I drink plenty. I get wasted rarely, and never in front of impressionable people or in public!
And I agree – the views expressed weren’t new. They were just embarrassing for those of us who identify with Jezebel, and a painful reminder of why many of us have become disillusioned recently. When I have recommended Jezebel to friends and family, I was never thinking of Moe or SM when I did – it was always Anna, Megan, Jessica, Lizzie, etc. who inspired me to do so.
And a general comment: I know that being 30, I might seem “old” to some of their fans. But I look at the sex positivity ideal as I would any sport – saying I’m “sex positive” but against condoms is like saying I’m “pro cycling” but against wearing a helmet. What? Brain injuries are no biggie, right? No. STI repercussions are often far-reaching and devastating. And whle I am pro-choice, I don’t advocate using abortions as a form of birth control.
To me, being “sex positive” means owning ALL aspects of one’s sexuality. And that includes the negative results of any sexual activity, voluntary or forced. I have physical issues from using Depo, and am a survivor of childhood molestation. I *love* sex, but in order to enjoy it fully I have to be open about certain things with my partners (now just the hubs, but the point remains). I’ve been stupid in my past, and if that HAD resulted in something chronic (which it damn sure could have!) owning my sexuality would mean admitting this up front and allowing my partner to make an *informed* decision before they got sexually involved with me. Lying (outright, or by omission) is denying an aspect of my sexual history and therefore a bit of my sexuality. And I would not/will not do that.
Moe and SM had ample opportunity to inform themselves of the tenor this segment could/might take. And opportunities to guide the discussion via pre-interviews. Disregarding these AND deciding to get wasted was asking for trouble. And whaddya know? Ask, and it shall be given unto you!
July 9, 2008 at 2:18 am
Damn, that was long. Sorry!
July 9, 2008 at 3:19 am
@picklesinmytuna: I’m with you. The show format is to have a glass of wine and talk about a controversial and interesting topic. Guests are presumed to be adults and are thus allowed to drink as much or as little as they wish.
It’s not as if Lizz was egging them on to do jello shots or hooking them up to the beer bong. Tracie seemed to be doing pretty well at filling her own glass. I never saw Lizz pour her wine or offer to get her more wine or in any way encourage these two to drink in any way.
Even if Lizz had this deep dark ulterior motive, and I personally don’t think she did, Tracie and Moe didn’t have to pick up what she was laying down. These are adults, right?
July 9, 2008 at 3:57 am
late here– not sure if I am angry or sad or both. I jumped ship as a commenter on Jez awhile ago, but still read frequently.
I am just getting caught up with the situation and still feel sort of dazed. And not in a good way.
July 9, 2008 at 8:39 am
Hi! Just wanted to drop by and clarify that when I said I was rooting for SM as a sex-positive writer, I didn’t mean I condoned her refusal to wear condoms and making light of STDs- which I don’t think is irresponsible, I think it’s completely idiotic and suicidal. What I meant was I was rooting for her to consider the valid criticisms given to her about her writing, grow from them, and become a positive voice for that. And of course I would hope it would be part of a larger framework of feminism and encompass other social issues, but I wouldn’t necessarily expect her to write about them on Jez because her areas are sex and pop culture. I look to the other writers to address the other issues through a feminist lens, if they regard themselves as feminism.
So basically we agree, I think, but I wanted to clarify.
Oh, and Nikki, my silly comment about bangs wasn’t about what you said. I was referring to the fact that for every comment with constructive criticism, there were five “fuck the haters” comments and compliments about her bangs. And orange nail polish. And her clothes. Anything but her actual character and the content of her posts aside from PP.
July 9, 2008 at 8:42 am
And fortunately, I didn’t see any of those kinds of comments yesterday.
July 9, 2008 at 10:01 am
Wow. What a thread. I was on Jez today but it seems so …. empty. Like going to high school the day after the seniors graduated. Hope Trixie is right about the growing pains.
July 9, 2008 at 11:39 am
I miss you guys – every last GD one of ya. I am thrilled to be able to come over here. [Holding back tears]
July 9, 2008 at 12:12 pm
@onaldpagan thanks!
@NeverNikki that was awesome
July 9, 2008 at 2:12 pm
I’ve been away from the internet for a week.
What did I miss?
July 9, 2008 at 5:52 pm
Yet another opinion from Jessica at Feministing:
“I do have to respond. Because I deeply care about the way that feminism is portrayed, the ways that feminist issues get talked about and how to create a better world for women. And maybe that makes me some post-hipster too-earnest uncool idealist, but I’d rather be a dork with a cause than a nihilist with a lot of page views.”
http://feministing.com/archives/009525.html
July 9, 2008 at 7:09 pm
Jessica of Feministing said the magic word “nihilist”. People who can only negate what others say, and don’t have the guts or the vocabulary to carry on a discussion.
BCP, thanks for the forum. Let’s carry it on.
July 9, 2008 at 7:35 pm
You know what? You all need to *relax*. The puritanical way you’ve gone and lynched your heroes is pathetic and sad. Seriously.
There’s something so Conservative (yes: with a Capital letter) and self-righteous about all the hand-wringing; it’s fucking *twee*. I mean, look at the *title* of this ridiculously po-faced article. How do you do feminism “wrong”? Any movement worth it’s salt has room for a multiplicity of voices, and they have the right to be confused and contradict themselves just like anybody else. You don’t like it? Build your own voice. I like Jezebel better it’s contradictions. They don’t wear capes.
July 9, 2008 at 8:10 pm
@ikemstar: hi, welcome.
i think perhaps you might be mistaken as to the point here. we’re not saying anyone needs to have a “cape” and certainly not anyone at Jezebel.
“I agree these two women didn’t ask to be “role models” for their generation — and I don’t believe they are — but the point is they COULD be.”
but these bloggers are in a position to inform or dis-inform millions of us little people and seeing as how that’s their job i think calling them out on their shit is neither pathetic, sad nor Conservative.
July 9, 2008 at 8:27 pm
@kadinsky: Jezebels already *are* role models – of a kind. If you want “leaders”, then this is the inevitable end result… isn’t it? They have just accelerated the process. The days when starry-eyed kids were led astray because of what “celebrities” (however underground) did are done. We mash-up our influences from a variety of sources. Nobody gets caught stealing because Winona Ryder did that too. They’ve been called out by the readership who are active and have agency – so where’s the harm? These impressionable kids = the scathing posters on this thread. Credit us with being able to take what’s good and filter out the rest for the bullshit that it is. I *know* they are limited – which mouthpiece has never been caught in public with their pants down? Isn’t that what the internet era is about?
July 9, 2008 at 8:44 pm
@kadinsky: hi ;-)
July 9, 2008 at 8:48 pm
@ikemstar: “Any movement worth it’s salt has room for a multiplicity of voices, and they have the right to be confused and contradict themselves just like anybody else.”
People disagreeing here and on Jezebel represents the very multiplicity of voices you speak of. Just as Tracie and Moe call out others every day on Jezebel, now others are calling them out for their actions (The Circle of Life song from the Lion King queuing up here).
Criticism is part of the territory, and they know it, and they can handle it. I don’t have to coddle their feelings, and I don’t think either of them would ask me to. They’re big girls, and life will go on.
July 9, 2008 at 9:02 pm
@ikemstam: we mash-up our influences from a variety of sources, yes – and what of the generation that mashes up their online time reading Jezebel’s two baddest bitchez? winona was getting busted, slut machine is fucking/partying (take yr pick). which do you think looks more glamorous to a young woman who hits the internet looking for information?
July 9, 2008 at 9:59 pm
@ikemstar First off lets address “The puritanical way you’ve gone and lynched your heroes is pathetic and sad.” In no way shape or form are either Moe or Tracie “heroes”, for many of us neither woman was ever even close to that. I really had to just laugh at that statement all together. And no one has lynched them, they not hanging from a tree my dear (you’re being a bit dramatic, no?). They are however being held accountable by a vast number of people regardless if they like it or want to be.
Secondly, “Jezebels already *are* role models”, well, for some, like perhaps you yes and that’s part of the problem with what has transpired. For others NOT. AT. ALL. NEVER. WAS. NEVER. WILL. BE.
Now this confused me, “Credit us with being able to take what’s good and filter out the rest for the bullshit that it is.” Who is “us”? and what exactly do you think you need or deserve “credit” for?
Lastly here, “which mouthpiece has never been caught in public with their pants down? Isn’t that what the internet era is about?” The Internet era? Really? People have been getting caught with the pants down long before the Internet was even a spark of an idea.
July 9, 2008 at 10:25 pm
@ikmestar: And the sad truth is, they ARE role models, whether or not they want to be. This is a comment from Tracie “Slut Machine”’s blog:
” i lost my virginity last week & the only thing i could think right after was ‘I hope my life, & my sex life is half as great & interesting as Tracy’s, I’d be happy with that.’
your the hero of a sixteen year old, who’s half way round the world.
i just really wanted you to know, i think your awesome.
Posted by: chloe. | April 18, 2008 at 05:39 AM.”.
They ARE role models, whether or not they accept it, and while no one can force them to take on this responsibility, they should WANT to be a positive influence, rather than a negative one.
July 9, 2008 at 10:26 pm
@pickles: Yeah, this is not really about US seeing them as heroes. Har!
July 9, 2008 at 11:10 pm
@ ikemstar: The truth about all of this is that the editors/writers became unnerved by the way that the particular commenters were becoming more popular than they were for their pro bono work on the site. Mash that up with the fact that the editors/writers were being paid according to page views. Filter in the obvious and malicious baiting of their visitors to their forum with topics to get them riled, and thus spend all day battling it out on the boards. Finally, finger wag at commenters for “mean girl behavior” and “girl on girl crime” and you have come up with just a hypocritical steaming pile.
Some people have “faces for radio.” I’m gonna say Moe and Tracie have “personalities for the internet.”
July 9, 2008 at 11:20 pm
Hey! Don’t know how many of you are still reading this, but y’all’s absence is severely felt on Jezebel.
Ike, nice to have a difference of opinions on this site since the convo was getting way too group-huggy, but I don’t see how the advent of the internet has anything to do with peoples’ capacity for hero-worship. As for feminism, there’s a lot of room for disagreement in the movement, but I wouldn’t call a guy who beats his wife a “feminist”, even if he calls himself one. And while I don’t want to come out and say that Tracie’s not a feminist, a lot of the things she said in the interview did go directly against the ideas that feminism stands for.
July 9, 2008 at 11:31 pm
@paisley: OH, I MISSED YOU SO.
July 9, 2008 at 11:44 pm
@paisley: Well put, my friend.
@katastic: I know, we missed her so.
July 10, 2008 at 12:08 am
@the person who said Judge Judy would tear SM a new asshole: Does it seem like SM’s entire job consists of sitting around watching trashy tv? It kind of bothers me that someone can get paid for that.
July 10, 2008 at 12:17 am
dictator4life: I know right? I wish Jezebel would hire me. My skills include watching trash TV, giving people herpes, and holding my liquor well enough to refrain from saying things like “I didn’t get raped because I’m, like, you know.”
Me: 1
SM: 0
She’s still a pretty good writer though, even if 9/10 of her posts are just TV clips.
July 10, 2008 at 12:21 am
@ronaldpagan: Sometimes I wonder if she gets a check from Vh1 every month. If not, she should send them a collection of her celebreality posts, and request $$.
July 10, 2008 at 12:22 am
Oh and she is a good writer, I will give her that. And her orange nail polish is cute, even though I was totally rocking that like, 2 weeks before she wore it on Pot Psychology (which I do enjoy). It’s Mod-ern Girl by OPI, btw.
July 10, 2008 at 12:22 am
@ronaldpagan: But can you clean a bong? Bazam, I win.
July 10, 2008 at 12:23 am
@paisley: Ahh, “personalities for the Internet,” otherwise known as, according to Encyclopedia Dramatica, unwarranted self-importance. That fits them well–and for Ms. Egan, it fits her perfectly, unlike her ’80s
lack offashion sense.Also: Moe and Tracie as nihilists? Oh, that must be exhausting! I’m gonna need a White Russian for this.
July 10, 2008 at 12:59 am
@Katastic & BAngieB: Leg hugs all around y’all!
July 10, 2008 at 8:29 am
@dictator4life: Her best friend Rich DOES work for VH1, so I think that’s one of the reasons she plugs their show so much.
July 10, 2008 at 9:48 am
@ronaldpagan: See, to me the whole “Is Tracie a feminist?” argument is like asking “Is George Bush really that stupid?”. The problem with George Bush is that he’s a lousy president; whether or not he’s stupid is kind of beside the point. Tracie may or may not be a feminist (or proclaim herself to be one), but the point is that she promotes damaging ideas about women, and inaccurate, unsafe sex information. We could go back and forth about if she is/ isn’t a feminist, but it’s kind of unquantifiable, you know what I mean? I can go ahead and say that I think she doesn’t really understand feminism, and that she uses it as a shield* to make the things she does seem noble and virtuous instead of fairly unsafe and pointless, but I can’t say whether or not she really believes in the equality of women. We don’t know her personally, so we can’t say; all we can hold her accountable for are the things she’s said, and the things she writes.
*Well, a shield and a bludgeon, to shame other women who criticize her for being archaic, ‘old-school’ feminists. But that’s another comment.
July 10, 2008 at 12:22 pm
Another (pretty much) former Jezebel and sometimes commenter here. I have to say, I love this whole post. I didn’t have much to say on Jez unless it related to pregnancy/breastfeeding/childbirth as those are my areas of expertise, but I so enjoyed you all over there and I am glad I found you here. I went over to Jez just for a second today and they had a post riddled with wrong info so I think I am done for good.
If anyone is still reading this, how do you all know they get paid by page views? Or is that just how Nick Denton gets down?
July 10, 2008 at 12:34 pm
@leets: Paid?!?! We don’t get paid…that’s what our real jobs are for :(.
July 10, 2008 at 12:37 pm
Hey, look now there is a cartoon about it. greattttttttt.
http://www.salon.com/mwt/broadsheet/2008/07/10/bateman_video/index.html
I’m shocked how so many blogs are covering those, oh, except jezebel.
July 10, 2008 at 12:38 pm
*this* sorry distracted by my sexy icon.
July 10, 2008 at 12:40 pm
@Sinny
May I call you Sinny? Sorry, I didn’t mean you ladies here at BCP, I meant the editors at Jezebel. Everyone keeps saying they are paid by page view, not a regular salary, and I was just curious how accurate that was and if anyone could confirm unequivocally.
July 10, 2008 at 12:41 pm
@Leets: @sinisterrouge:, i think she meant how do we know they get paid by page views.
yeah, it’s how Denton hands out the beans. but this here? this is something we do for the children, such as.
July 10, 2008 at 1:05 pm
@hammerimissu:
I know, right?!? Still fucking nothing from Tracie or Moe on Jezebel. I don’t know why I’m so disappointed. Just can’t seem to get past it enough to go back yet. Sad.
July 10, 2008 at 1:29 pm
she ain’t the same without you guys…mind if i lurk?
July 10, 2008 at 2:27 pm
@Leets: There have been several articles and posts, some by Denton, about their pay structure. They’re paid a salary and get a pageview bonus every quarter.
@kadinsky: Hopefully y’all will get some advertising dollars eventually. Your little blog is growing fast!
July 10, 2008 at 2:31 pm
Slut Machine has finally spoken:
http://www.onedatatime.com/dick_liker/2008/07/on-responsibility-role-models.html#comments
July 10, 2008 at 2:31 pm
OMG! SarahMC has a guestblogger reaction up at Shakesville!!
http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2008/07/thinking-drinking.html
July 10, 2008 at 3:21 pm
@hammerimissu: HA! Once you see it in a cartoon, it looks seriously stupid. That’s the thing; everyone IS covering it but Jezebel. They clearly just hope it’s going to go away.
HAHAHAHA. HA.
July 10, 2008 at 3:27 pm
Who was asking about page views and pay scale at Gawker?
http://www.portfolio.com/views/blogs/market-movers/2008/07/03/blogonomics-gawkers-latest-pay-cut
July 10, 2008 at 4:06 pm
@pickles: I guess we should be glad we do it for love, then. Hmm.
July 10, 2008 at 4:25 pm
Just curious, why don’t y’all have ads?
July 10, 2008 at 4:25 pm
Did anyone read SM’s post last night about how feminist icons don’t set out to be feminist icons, but others give them that title, and you know, Dolly Parton’s a feminist icon because she’s unapologetic about who she is?
Yeah, whatever.
If you guys are still reading it, NY Jezzies are hugging it out tomorrow night. Check your Facebook if you haven’t already, or PM/get someone to PM me on Jez for the details.
July 10, 2008 at 4:30 pm
@ms.marvelous: it’s a wordpress restriction, no ads and no $$ on wp blogs, i’m afraid.
July 10, 2008 at 4:38 pm
@Kadinsky, well without all that revenue to think of your posts can focus on the QUALITY of content and NOT the QUANITY of hits and the almighty bottom dollar.
How refreshing!
July 10, 2008 at 4:44 pm
@picklesinmytuna: Your name makes me cry when i don’t have tuna, whole grain bread, sweet relish and mayonnaise around. which is often since I’ve been dragging my feet about going to the grocery store these days.
July 10, 2008 at 5:54 pm
@katastic: Totally.
July 12, 2008 at 7:39 am
Finally I found this site! It took a while. Thank you for the first intelligent discourse I’ve read on this subject.
Years ago I worked in a rape crisis centre, so I’m sure I don’t need to tell you all my views on the video. I’m still numb as I can’t quite believe what I saw.
My biggest disappointment was the post that Anna wrote on Jezebel that was supposed to address the issue. It didn’t. Yeah, no doubt I’d be called an old crone on Jezebel these days. but I like accountability.
The part that is really getting to me is the very good articles I’ve read on Jez concerning violence and women in the military – and then this happens?!
Thank you so much for this blog.
September 18, 2008 at 6:52 pm
You know the day I earned my commenting rights on Jez was one of the proudest days of my life. Of course no one around me knew the importance it had in my life and now their is no pride just shame. First post on Jez Aug 2007. Makes me sad that the excitement I had for this great site has now gone fallow.
September 18, 2008 at 6:53 pm
Fuck *there not their