Today, while wandering around downtown Denver, I stumbled upon a raucous group of Hillary Clinton supporters who were soon brawling with Barack Obama supporters. Actually, not Obama supporters — some of them HAD been Clinton supporters but have accepted that she lost and are now backing Obama in the hopes of putting a Democrat in the White House.
Most of the women I talked to in this protest group told me something that stunned me almost into speechlessness: They intended to vote for McCain rather than Obama. But he’s anti-choice, I pointed out. He looks like he’s angling to start another war, this time in Iran, I added. He’s everything Hillary Clinton isn’t, I said. Hillary Clinton wants you to vote for Obama, I added. They could not be swayed — Obama, and his alleged thievery of Clinton’s rightful nomination, was, in their minds, a greater evil than the Republicans.
I must confess this flummoxes me. How can this be? If you hate Obama that much, don’t vote at all. But vote for McCain? Huh? What am I missing? How have people lost the big picture — the Republicans are the enemy here, not other Democrats.
Anyone?
p.s. SinRoo — be gentle with me.
p.p.s. It wasn’t all bad — an extremely hot man in an Armani suit who looked like Tyson soon started heckling them with “You lost, get over it! You lost, get over it!” and it was schwing-worthy.
ButtercupPunch - "La clique, c’est chic!" 
August 25, 2008 at 8:08 pm
No actual Democrat can be torn between Obama and McCain. PUMA pac has a graphic comparing Bush/Cheney to Obama/Biden…..
As far as I’m concerned, they need to get out of the party.
August 25, 2008 at 8:24 pm
Sigh. Right. Vote for the guy who called his wife a cunt. I don’t get it at all either.
August 25, 2008 at 8:29 pm
I don’t get it either. Anyone who votes for McCain as a sign of support for Hillary IS A FUCKING MORON AND SHOULD BE ASHAMED TO CALL HERSELF A WOMAN. Period. End of story.
(‘scuse the shouting. I get riled on this topic.)
August 25, 2008 at 9:08 pm
You should check out the video of the with Chris Matthews on YouTube (or on That Site That Shall Not Be Named).
August 25, 2008 at 9:15 pm
They may be robots, but I don’t see any Republicans saying they’re voting for Obama because they’re so sad Giuliani didn’t win Florida. God, people. That’s so self-defeating I don’t know where to start with it.
August 25, 2008 at 9:29 pm
There was even a poll the other say that suggests McCain has wooed one in five disgruntled Hillary supporters. Holy shit, ladies. Big picture! Think big picture!!
August 25, 2008 at 10:19 pm
maybe they are just secretly racist?
August 25, 2008 at 10:52 pm
@M. Y’know, that’s occurred to me, too. Older white women who are secretly not comfortable with voting for a young(ish) black man and so they cloak it in their support of Hillary? Seems possible.
August 25, 2008 at 11:12 pm
M: There was DEFINITELY some of that. One old hag started yelling about how he was worse than Bush and said all his supporters were criminals and crazy people … in other words, black people. I wanted to kick the old bag in the box.
August 25, 2008 at 11:43 pm
Why is so much blog space (I was annoyed when this appeared on Jez as well) being devoted to this teeny tiny minority of people? You’re playing into right wing strategy of shifting the focus to Clinton-related non-stories at the convention rather than, y’know, the convention. When there are political gatherings there will always be kooky fringe groups protesting. As far as I’m concerned, it does the Dems no favors to let these things be the story.
August 26, 2008 at 12:31 am
Notmandy: Unfortunately they are everywhere in Denver, in the faces of all sorts of camera crews, so what can the Dems do about it?
I don’t know why they don’t listen to Hillary and why they don’t understand the damage they could be doing.
And by the way, I would never report on this as a journalist — this is a blog, where I rant about stuff that pisses me off.
August 26, 2008 at 12:36 am
I admit I am not the least bit enamored of Obama, but by God, I’m voting for him. We must sweep those fucktards out of office ASAP!
August 26, 2008 at 12:45 am
@BowlingForDollars: exactly! can we get an unenthusiastic cheer for obama?!
August 26, 2008 at 12:51 am
@M – but I love Michelle Obama. She’s awesome and I thought she did a great job tonight.
August 26, 2008 at 1:13 am
Bowling: She was awesome. And the kids were perfection.
August 26, 2008 at 2:21 am
I remain quite unimpressed w/Obama, but will throw my vote in that direction because I see it as the lesser of the 2 evils. Which is a really sad, jaded perspective to have on the political machines of this country.
Lobby groups have financed the conventions yet again, and will continue to call the shots in DC regardless of who sits as POTUS. Disgusting!
August 26, 2008 at 4:44 am
I think Hillary could be a little more aggressive in reaching out to these people. However, I think there’s a rattling screw in many of those heads (I´m referring to the really hard-core angry anti-Obama crowd). The rage and the venom is hard to fathom. I almost puked when I heard Gerri Ferraro call Obama “an unqualified black male”. Jesus. If that isn’t racist..
August 26, 2008 at 6:01 am
It isn’t hard for me to understand for this reason: We continue to choose unelectable candidates, and I can’t think of many things that frustrate me more. Big state loser much? Yeah. Swing vote nothing much? Yeah. I will always vote Democrat, but Obama shouldn’t have been our choice, and if you look at the popular vote and not the caucuses (don’t get me started), the CNN, the MSNBC, the hipsters, or the would’ve-been-blue-anyway states, you know exactly what I’m talking about. It really doesn’t matter who I vote for b/c I am in a red state, and most of y’all are in the same boat b/c your state has already been checked off in one column or the other. Swing voters better get out there and vote Dem, but this is really a lot of to-do about nothing. Women are the backbone of the party, and we’ve been treated like shit, and if we want to stand in the street and scream and yell aobut it, we can. This is, after all, still America. Sort of.
P.S. Siding with a man who heckles women with a real, legitimate beef about the party’s unelectable candidate and its mysoginist treatment of women – who have been there for the party always and forever and without whom the party would be nothing – uncool. Armani suit or no. Those of us who have watched with dismay at our party’s failure to seal the deal over and over again lately, thrown in with the “liberal” media’s crowning of Obama and disgusting treatment of HRC and President Clinton, are still smarting. We have the right. Especially at our party’s convention. Not so long ago, the convention was about debate and last-minute, best-interest candidate choice. The fact that it’s become a staged, multi-day commercial which journalists really don’t even have a reason to cover doesn’t mean people can’t go OUTSIDE the convention and say what they want to say about THEIR party.
P.P.S. I am voting Obama and have given him money, so no need to pile on, folks. Thanks.
August 26, 2008 at 6:47 am
@Bowlingfordollars: I’m with you on not being overly enamored of Obama (and was so disappointed in the Biden choice) but I’m damn sure voting for him! Maybe if we ignore these women they will drop their attention-seeking behavior?
August 26, 2008 at 6:56 am
I will vote for Barry in November, but everytime I meet an Obamabot or read some skeevy attack on Clinton (cough–crappy hour), part of me just wants to stay home and not even bother to vote(don’t worry Maryland will always remain blue). Although I don’t endorse the PUMA mentality, I understand where a lot of their rage,frustration, and hurt is coming from.
Oh and Trixie, welcome to America. Don’t forget that people elected Bush, not once, but twice.
August 26, 2008 at 6:57 am
Oh and the nutjobs have dubbed them: Obama Bin Biden.
August 26, 2008 at 7:19 am
Trixie, why are you giving these idiots MORE attention? They are but a tiny smidge of the populace. OTHER Clinton supporters that MAY vote for McCain are the type of people that are not party-loyal, that have voted for Bill and then Bush. Reagan and THEN Bill. MOST of the country, a full about 65% of them are very much in the MIDDLE. They do not hold loyalty to a party nor are they idealogues. Some may care about unions more than abortion rights. Some may care MOST about abortion rights and not gun rights. MOST Americans are not black or white, Democrat or Republican. So while they may be lots of former Hillary supporters (that liked her for reasons like working-class appeal and the like but not necessarily her abortion stance) that may vote for McCain, every Clinton vote turned McCain is not about the MINUTE amount of people that call themselves PUMA or whatever.
Jesus. NOT voting for Obama does not make one a PUMA. Voting for McCain does NOT make one a total abortion-hating asshole. It may be wrong and misguided and perhaps and likely against their own best interests, but it’s their RIGHT. And their vote. They can give it to whomever they feel represents them best.
That being said, I am voting for Obama. IN SPITE of some of his surrogates refusing to leave Hillary out of it. If I watch the news, it makes me want to vote for McCain. So I don’t watch the news. And I keep myself in check.
But McCain votes do NOT equal PUMAs. And Obama votes do NOT equal loyal Dems. The American public is a lot more in the MIDDLE.
August 26, 2008 at 8:35 am
I know one of these women…
I would bet that the disgruntled rump have been badly-done-to by a man in the past, and this is their way of getting revenge.
Stupid yes, but who ever said revenge was smart.
August 26, 2008 at 8:40 am
Amen to MBB and SinRoo, but what really bothers me about this whole meme is the implication that everyone else’s votes are based on policies except for “those crazy Hillary supporters”! Listen: people vote for crazy reasons. Low-income people who vote Republican, for example, are voting against their own economic interests. Gay people who vote Republican are voting against their own social interests. So what? People do this every election. But when a very teeny group of women who happen to be Hillary supporters do it, it’s national news? You can’t denigrate one faction’s reasons for voting if you’re not denigrating everyone else’s.
Don’t feed the machine, ButterCupPunch.
August 26, 2008 at 8:41 am
giftedtypist: really? You think that people who are still voting for Hillary are mad at an ex-boyfriend? That’s the argument you wanna make?
August 26, 2008 at 8:47 am
Amen, SinnRoo. It’s a big, complicated country, and we each vote the way we do for our own reasons. No real news comes out of the conventions anymore, so I guess you have to find news where you can, but groups of former HRC supporters who aren’t going to vote Obama isn’t news, and it isn’t outrageous. It also isn’t limited to Democrats or women or so-called PUMAs. My father-in-law is one such person. My Republican husband is another. Several of his Republican friends feel that way, too. They would’ve voted HRC, but now they’re voting McCain. Call them out or call no one out, because each vote is personal. Why should we hold women to a higher standard? Oh yeah, b/c that’s the American way. Welcome!
August 26, 2008 at 8:49 am
MBB: They were insane. Some of them were racist. I stand by my siding of the man in the Armani suit, because his point was this: She lost, rightly or wrongly. And now it’s time to let it go — at least for now — and support the Democratic candidate. If they want to take up all the ways in which she got fucked, the convention isn’t the place to do it. They are just playing into McCain’s hands.
August 26, 2008 at 8:55 am
@trixie: FUCK THAT.They’re insane and racist just because they don’t support Obama? I’m gonna get out of here before I get angry. Because that is BULLSHIT. And NO ONE is playing into McCain’s hands. That’s bullshit too and it disappoints me that you of all people are saying it Trixie. Not everyone votes for the Dem party. For years people have voted for a litany of different reasons: such as all those people that were voting for Obama based on his inspiration. That’s just as much a BULLSHIT reason as thousands of others.
Now I’m enraged. Thanks, Trix!
August 26, 2008 at 9:05 am
OK, hold on a minute.
I WAS THERE! You guys weren’t! Got it? I saw things and heard things that you ladies did not. So everyone calm down.
Some old dame told me, on camera, while other old dames were around her nodding in agreement, that Obama was worse than Bush and that all his supporters were drug dealers, ex-crimimals and stupid. When the Armani guy asked: “Do you mean black people, in other words?” She replied: “You can read into that any way you like, but yes, people like you.”
Sorry, that’s racist.
I did NOT say all HRC supporters are racist. But this nasty old dame was. She was also calling another woman a bitch — one who had been an HRC supporter and was now backing Obama, when she tried to reasonably argue with her about why Obama was still a better choice than McCann.
And have you seen those McCain ads making a play for disgruntled HRC supporters? Because all of these women had, and were going on about how they had helped convince them to vote for McCain.
Please understand that I do not for ONE MINUTE think HRC supporters are racist. I agree that she was badly fucked over. But these particular women, who were wandering Denver and courting TV cameras wherever they went — some of them were batshit crazy, and you could tell that even among this group, others were cringing.
Those loons need to sit down.
August 26, 2008 at 9:08 am
@Trixie: And these old dames like I’ve said ALL ALONG are but a TINY segment of HRC supporters. They ARE NOT in any way significant. But the news, and now YOU are making them more important then they are. YOU are courting them and their BULLSHIT and for that I am sorry. Because they mean nothing. And if people feel McCain is a better choice then that’s up to them. Yeah, maybe the old hag was a racist. But let’s find out how many Obama voters hate women? How bout we do that? Oh yeah. That’s insignificant, isn’t it. Just like these women.
August 26, 2008 at 9:08 am
OH PLEASE. These assumptions about “hillary supporters” are insulting if not ignorant. Way to over-simplify the issue, ladies.
I am not a democrat, I’m a libertarian. When I vote on economic policy, I vote republican. When I vote on moral/social issues, I vote democrat. Hillary represented my social beliefs, while also staying more in the middle ground of economic policy. She was the perfect candidate. For me.
I think Obama is a magnetic man and undoubtedly a great leader. The manner in which he tackled the race issue was awe-inspiring. His fearlessness in addressing that issue point-blank and even-handedly evokes the approach I want the next president to employ on every issue. For that reason, I’m considering voting for him.
I’m also considering voting for McCain. It has nothing to do with daddy issues, racism, revenge, feminism or anything else. Your lack of faith in even the informed populis is disheartening, even for an old cynical bitch like myself.
August 26, 2008 at 9:11 am
Trixie, With all due respect, I have voted in every election since 1992, I have given thousands of dollars to the Democratic party, I’ve been a citizen of this country for 33 years, and I know from racism having spent my whole life in the South. I think I may understand this issue better than you, and I sure as hell have a bigger stake in the outcome of this election than someone who is, well, not a citizen. Sorry. I love you, but I think you’re carpetbagging on this one. I would never dare pop into Canadian politics to give y’all the what-for, and I’m not sure where you’re coming from here.
August 26, 2008 at 9:11 am
“If they want to take up all the ways in which she got fucked, the convention isn’t the place to do it”
If not the convention Trixie, then where? Let them protest, this is not Communist China. Didn’t the Chinese just get flack for circumventing the freedom of expression and enforcing a crack down on protests and protesters during the Beijing Olympics?
Just ignore them Trixie and keep it moving. Stock up on Sonic, Jack in the Box (ok maybe not Jack in the Box)& delicious Mexican food before you head out this way.
August 26, 2008 at 9:12 am
@noxiousbeast: THANK YOU.
Fuck. I always will vote the economy. And I think that Democrats will ALWAYS do a better job. So that’s why I’ll vote Dem. But let’s not play games and pretend that women that don’t vote for Obama hate their ex-boyfriends. That’s downright stupid. My husband is thinking about voting for McCain. He’s a lifelong democrat thoroughly enraged at how the party treated BILL particularly. So yeah, he has HIS reasons, I have mine and America as a whole has THEIRS. So maybe we shouldn’t focus on a couple of stupid women making a stink in Denver. It feeds the beast. That does NOT exist.
August 26, 2008 at 9:14 am
@MBB: Exactly. I’ve been a Democrat all my life and have always always always been into politics. So please don’t try and tell me HOW and WHO I should vote for nor the motivations for people not agreeing with voting for Obama. FUCK
August 26, 2008 at 9:21 am
Sin: This is a blog. I write about things that flummox me. I am not the New York Times. I haven’t written about this as part of my news coverage. What, maybe 100 people read this on a daily basis?
I stumbled upon a scene yesterday that confused the fuck out of me, so I blogged about it. It is not an attempt to lend any credence to these women — I think we all agree that they are not representative of the vast majority of HRC supporters. But crazy people are always interesting.
MBB: That is really hurtful. I just saw something that confused me. It was ugly. And I blogged on it. I am not attempting to interfere in American politics and am CERTAINLY not suggesting all HRC supporters are racist. But I saw something that you guys did not see. If you came to Canada and saw something similar, I would not attack you for blogging about it. It would be your right as an observer. I am not sure what being Canadian has to do with any of this.
August 26, 2008 at 9:23 am
Amoureuse: My point was merely that given eight years of those evil pricks, the convention might be a place where the party puts forth a public face of unity.
And all the other problems that lead to HRC getting fucked over as badly as she did — AND I AGREE WITH THAT, EVERYONE — might be better addressed at a different forum.
August 26, 2008 at 9:24 am
@Trixie: I have seen PLENTY of political arguments. One that you happened to see in Denver and I saw in NY does not make your particular experience any less average. And we blog about things that are weird, strange whatever but ALSO things that are in the news. And these retards have been in the news of late and especially NOW and I find it disingenuous that now you say that they’re not a news item but are just some strange occurrence you wanted to blog about. I
August 26, 2008 at 9:25 am
@ Trixie: THAT IS WHAT CONVENTIONS ARE FOR.
August 26, 2008 at 9:30 am
Trixie, I think what made me angry is the “extremely hot man in the Armani suit” and his “schwing-worthy” chant. Because, “you lost, get over it” is not really the right response to a legitimate beef with the way the more viable candidate and women in general have been treated in this election. I guess what I’m saying is you have to live here and suffer the consequences of the Dems’ repeated poor choices to really know how it feels to continue to live through our collective national nightmare, and siding with a man, however hot, who tries to silence the debate with “you lost, get over it” made me angry. Whether HRC lost is debatable, but whether the Democratic party lost isn’t (in my opinion).
Also, the convention is the perfect place to air your concerns about your party. I’m with Amoureuse on that one all the way. Of course protest isn’t really allowed anywhere near the convention this year, and that would also be a very interesting subject to write about, it being the Democratic motherfucking convention and all.
August 26, 2008 at 9:31 am
I hope you bitches are happy. You’ve made me cry with your anti-Canadianism and suggestions that I am a Hillary hater out to embarrass her on BCP!
Also: Sin, I had never seen it face-to-face. I saw it face-to-face. And it was fucking bizarre. And so I blogged on it. Isn’t that what blogging is? To blog about your personal experiences? And so I did. I make no apologies.
August 26, 2008 at 9:32 am
@Trixie: YES. And it happened to be about some dumb old whores that are all over the news. So that fact does not escape me nor do I think didn’t play into your reason for blogging about it. And I never said a damn thing about you being Canadian. Being that I’m a foreigner myself.
August 26, 2008 at 9:33 am
@Trixie: And I feel you ARE out to embarrass her and paint her other supporters in the same light. See, another example. And of course the HOT guy in the suit was an Obama supporter. Never mind that protest is supposed to be allowed and he was being a dick, but he had on a great suit!
August 26, 2008 at 9:33 am
MBB: It was an attempt to add a little humour. The guy was very articulate and intelligent. He said he loved Hills, would have supported her and wished she’d been on the ticket. But he was mad because these women were following CNN and MSNBC crews around trying to get on camera and to make it LOOK LIKE the Democratic party was in severe distress and was fatally fractured. And he lost it at them finally, and after the racist old hag said what she said.
August 26, 2008 at 9:35 am
@Trixie: and her you are perpetuating the same falsehood.
August 26, 2008 at 9:35 am
Sin: All I can say to that is that you are WRONG. This was a lunatic fringe. And I saw them up close, and it was stunning.
And please, once again, remind yourself: I WAS THERE! You were not! You are painting a scene in your head that you weren’t even there to witness.
I am out of here.
August 26, 2008 at 9:35 am
trixiefromtoronto: Don’t cry Trixie.
I expect the favor to be returned to the Republicans at the RNC. Hopefully there will be epic protests and maybe a couple of trash can fires. I have my fingers crossed and am hoping that the Paultards come thru for me.
August 26, 2008 at 9:36 am
Trix, it’s just frustrating. There’s a group of people who initially voted for Hillary and are now voting for McCain over Obama. So what? There are LOTS of groups doing that. There are also lots of groups voting for all sorts of other people, for all sorts of other reasons. Yet all we hear about it the emotional women who can’t get over it. First of all it’s false reasoning, and second of all it’s insulting, and third of all, it’s irrelevant. So it’s frustrating to see it here, and in a way that perhaps wasn’t framed well.
August 26, 2008 at 9:37 am
@Trixie: My issue is not that these old hags weren’t being complete assholes- they very obviously were. I completely believe your assessment. And my point to you is that I AM HERE, having watched what unfolded at EVERY MINUTE and seeing what was done. So don’t tell ME I don’t know what I’m talking about. That these women are obviously NUTS. That I don’t agree with them. MY ISSUE IS: WHY ARE YOU DOING WHAT THE MSM DOES AND GIVING THEM THE ATTENTION they so desperately seek.
August 26, 2008 at 9:51 am
Whoa! It doesn’t have to get this heated! From what I read, Trixie was telling us about an experience she had with a small group of wackjobs. As I read it, she’s not denying anyone their right to vote or protest! She’s just pointing out that she believes this particular group of protesters to be wrong-headed. That doesn’t mean that she hates Senator Clinton! And she’s not saying that they’re crazy because they support HRC, but because they’re racist! NOT ALL HRC supporters, but the one who said that:
Obama was worse than Bush and that all his supporters were drug dealers, ex-crimimals and stupid. When the Armani guy asked: “Do you mean black people, in other words?” She replied: “You can read into that any way you like, but yes, people like you.”
That is what she is objecting to. I’m sure we can all agree that those words are wrong. LEAVE TRIXIE ALOOOOOONE!!
August 26, 2008 at 9:52 am
@Trixie: “Isn’t that what blogging is? To blog about your personal experiences? And so I did. I make no apologies.”
Eep – I hear echoes of Slut Machine in this.
August 26, 2008 at 9:53 am
I think that while they have a valid reason to protest and are free to do so (and I encourage it when articulated well and all that) I do think that the only people getting press are the crazies (as usual) and not the people who have a well-thought out reason for feeling HRC got screwed. I think there comes a point when you have to say, yea, she got screwed and it sucks and Obama was shitty to her, but we need to move on, and decide who to vote for now, of the available candidates and I think that time is after the convention when Obama/Biden is the nominee, it just seems a moot point to keep going over the same issue forever when nothing can be accomplished that way, you know?
August 26, 2008 at 9:54 am
@cate3710: I’m not trying to pick a fight, but I’m genuinely curious. Why should she apologize?
August 26, 2008 at 10:00 am
@Unicorn: I don’t necessarily think Trixie needs to apologize for anything, but it’s disheartening to hear that sort of rhetoric (which ignores the big picture and implies that blogging doesn’t have a big influence on people’s opinions) from someone I respect.
August 26, 2008 at 10:00 am
Trixie, I am sorry I hurt your feelings. I really am, and I really do love you, and I obviously welcome your beauty and sanity and excellent writing to the States. But I read the headline of this post:
“Hillary Supporters Saying They’ll Vote for McCain Rather Than Obama: WTF?”
and your comments herein as an opinion piece, not an eyewitness report. I’m sorry we got our wires crossed.
P.S. This is a deeply divided country, even within the two parties, and politics is a major hot-button issue. I fight dirty, having lived in a Dem-Repub marriage for the past 9 years, and sometimes I forget I’m not dealing with someone as lowdown, awful, and nasty as I am. This is to explain, not to excuse.
August 26, 2008 at 10:02 am
Thanks, Unicorn.
And believe me, if a bunch of crazy, sexist Obama supporters were wandering Denver picking fights with people and courting camera crews, I’d have blogged on it too. But I haven’t seen any of those. Nor have I seen organized groups of former Republicans saying they plan to vote for Obama because Rommney didn’t get in.
Sin: Please stop twisting my words. It is an insult to our very sincere and dearly held friendship. It is hurtful. I didn’t say at any point that you don’t know what you’re talking about — you know very well that I am in awe of your intelligence on this matter, because I have been telling you that for two years. What I am saying is that you didn’t see what I saw yesterday. You can cast all the aspersions you want against the guy in the Armani suit, but if you’d seen what I saw and heard what this woman said to him, I can’t imagine that you wouldn’t have understood why he reacted the way he did. But you weren’t there. That is my only point.
The irony of this entire suggestion is that many of the Hillary supporters claim, rightfully, that his win was undemocratic. And they are right. But shouting down people who blog about the crazies you’d rather everyone ignore, or to suggest because I am Canadian (not you, SinRoo, but MBB) I have no right to share it seems, well, undemocratic.
The point is, they can’t undo that Obama is now the candidate. It just seems to me a time to try to now go after the Republicans. Seriously, bitterly and angrily.
August 26, 2008 at 10:02 am
Cate: What rhetoric? Seriously, what are you talking about?
August 26, 2008 at 10:04 am
MBB: I stand by the WTF for any Democrat saying they’d vote for McCain. I’m sorry, I just don’t get that. I get not voting because you’re pissed. I don’t get voting for four more years of those evil fucks because you’re pissed off.
August 26, 2008 at 10:08 am
Trix – to your last point about standing by your WTF for any Dem saying they’d vote for McCain – that’s the point. These people saying that AREN’T Dems. Not everyone aligns themselves with a party. So yes, there are people who voted for HRC who are now voting McCain. Those people, 9 times out of 10, never called themselves Dems. I myself have a few people in my family as well as some friends who don’t align with a party, voted for HRC, and are now voting for McCain.
But I guess since they’re men, they don’t get questioned about it.
August 26, 2008 at 10:08 am
@Trixie: I’m not twisting your words. I’m expressing MY reaction to them. I feel these women are stupid. I feel these women are insane. Some of them are racist. It just really bugs my ass that you are helping their stupidity and the divisions in the party to give them some attention. Not to mention, one can vote for McCain and not be an Obama-hating racist un-democratic asshole. People vote THEIR issues, whatever they may be. Some people feel that maybe McCain being president with a democratic congress is the way to go. They like divided governments. That’s all *I* am saying. That it’s not as simple as Bush sucks therefore you MUST vote for Obama. I don’t have to do anything and neither do other Democrats. Our vote is OURS, not the party nor Obama’s.
August 26, 2008 at 10:09 am
@cate3710: Okay, I can respect that. I don’t like “Hey, it’s my experience, and it’s just a blog, therefore you can’t criticize me for being a hypocrite/hipster douche/rape apologist/whatever” either. I don’t think that’s what Trixie was doing here, but I get where you’re coming from and I agree.
August 26, 2008 at 10:11 am
Which , to add to my last sentence, is where the real issue (for me) lies: women, particularly HRC supporters, are made to cosntantly defend their reasoning and their vote. We are accused of either voting with our vagina (if we vote for a female candidate), or voting against it (if we vote for an anti-choice candidate), or voting against it again (because women are too emotional to hold office), etc. It’s a constant fight, and it’s disheartening to see it played out on this blog too. C’est tout.
August 26, 2008 at 10:11 am
Trixie, Our country is more complicated than good Dem v. evil Repub. If you stand by your WTF, I stand by my “you aren’t from here and may not understand.”
And again, as SinnRoo pointed out, a lot of Dems or independents voting for McCain aren’t doing so because they’re pissed off. My one reason for voting Obama is reproductive rights. A vote for McCain, on the other hand, would save my family a lot of money. Life and politics are complicated. I’m sure it’s that way everywhere, you know?
August 26, 2008 at 10:15 am
I wasn’t really suggesting the old Slut Machine “it’s my blog and I’ll do what I want” thing.
If I thought I’d written anything truly offensive, I would in fact apologize. But I can’t pretend that I didn’t react to something the way I did. I was pretty appalled. I didn’t even get into the racist stuff in the post because I actually thought that would be too inflammatory. I brought it up because I was explaining Armani guy in the comments. My bigger confusion, in fact, was the notion they would vote for McCain.
But as Baden has just pointed out, they likely weren’t Democrats, they’re just women who loved Hills. And that is something that I didn’t appreciate. Many of them are delegates so I just assumed they were longtime Dems, so I was completely stunned that they were now saying they’d vote for four more years of Republican evil.
August 26, 2008 at 10:18 am
@Trixie: Even if there ARE Democrats, registered ones, lots of them are not party-loyal. They vote however they want depending on what they want. Take for example, Hispanics. They voted for Bush HUGE…because they liked him. They liked his religiousness and could relate. But this time they like Obama. For some of the same reasons. This time maybe they’re voting for immigration policy rather than social religious issues. It’s not that simple to say: They should vote Democrat if they are Democrats. MOST democrats are not as liberal as us nor as ideologically-guided as we are.
August 26, 2008 at 10:22 am
In case it was unclear: Trixie, I don’t think you were doing the same thing as Slut Machine, and I certainly don’t think you’re a hipster douche or any of that! I think you’re great, and I don’t think this post warrants an apology. I was just saying that I agree with Cate that “Blog=Experience=Infallible” is untrue. If you had said something offensive or inaccurate, then this argument doesn’t hold water. But I don’t think you did, so I’m with you 100%.
August 26, 2008 at 10:26 am
On a side note – Trix, everytime you say “Hills” I read it as “The Hills” and get confused as to what that has to do with things. Seriously, I’ve done it twice so far this morning.
WWLCD? (What Would LC Do?)
August 26, 2008 at 10:28 am
Didn’t Lauren Conrad run?
August 26, 2008 at 10:28 am
I think I need to call to order an emergency meeting of the Vagina-Hand-Holding Circle of Love.
August 26, 2008 at 10:30 am
@BAngieB: Can we get a graphic on that? I think it would go a long way towards the love :)
August 26, 2008 at 10:43 am
Angie: Hold me.
August 26, 2008 at 10:51 am
TheDomina: I will get AYL on that, as she is good at photoshop.
Trixie: I will be there soon.
I think I need to come up with a fun post, huh?
August 26, 2008 at 10:57 am
@thedomina & bang: i got you girls covered!
@trix & bang: should i call for reinforcements? tomboys? toys that vibe and jive?
@badenbaden: WWHND? (What Would Heidi NOT Do?)
August 26, 2008 at 11:08 am
I love it that you gals can come in here and very respectfully disagree. BCP rules.
August 26, 2008 at 11:14 am
in true BCP fashion we have settled this squabble out back with a round of jello wrestling – we now return you to your regular tuesday activities.
August 26, 2008 at 11:39 am
kadinksy: Smoking weed and bitching?
August 26, 2008 at 11:42 am
Kadinsk: I still have Jello in my ‘gina.
August 26, 2008 at 11:47 am
Trixie: Yeah, about 3 metric tons. Cause, you know…
August 26, 2008 at 12:28 pm
Oh for the love of Pete, guys. People need to CALM DOWN. Trixie is focusing on these women because their point of view is, in her view and mine, pretty freaking shocking. And yes, some of them are probably moderates anyhow, and some are probably die-hard Hil supporters who loathe Obama for whatever reason, and some ARE probably racist. There are shades of grey here. It’s understandable that emotions are running high, but I don’t think every observation is a slur, whether against Hillary or Obama or whomever. He’s our nominee. If you don’t like him, you don’t have to vote for him- but it’s legitimate for Trixie to spotlight this group of women that she observed, even if you feel they’re over-exposed in the MSM. If Hillary had been the nominee, I would hope that Obama supporters would’ve unified behind her- although I suspect that would’ve been just as difficult. Trixie is making a legitimate point here.
August 26, 2008 at 12:32 pm
@Katastic: I don’t need to calm down at all, thank you. And people can support whoever they want. Just like certain Obama supporters could never vote for her and her war vote (funny how Biden voted for the war and nary a peep) her supporters have every right to not vote for him based on whatever reason they want. And Katastic, NOT voting for Obama doesn’t make anyone racist. No matter how many times you might have heard THAT particular falsehood. Gee, I dunno, maybe some people just think he lacks experience? Or they don’t like that he’s anti-war? Or they don’t like his stance on guns? Or on gay marriage? Or on a plethora of other reasons.
August 26, 2008 at 12:41 pm
@SinRo: Dude, I KNOW that not voting for Obama doesn’t make people racist. That’s WHY I gave a plethora of reasons- people don’t like Obama for plenty of reasons. But surely SOME of them ARE racist, just as SOME people who won’t vote for Hillary ARE sexist, and some are not. You cannot deny racism has been an issue in this campaign, just has sexism has. And as I said, people are FREE not to vote for him, although it’s not the choice I would make personally. My point is that there’s a kind of knee-jerk defensiveness going on here, on both sides, and it does no one any favors. Trixie pointing out that SOME people who refuse to vote for Obama MAY be racist does not mean ALL people who refuse to vote for Obama are racist. Maybe you’re upset about that being implied in the MSM, but that’s not what she’s saying here and you know it.
August 26, 2008 at 12:44 pm
Well maybe then the post should be about misogynists that don’t like voting for women? Cuz if race is indeed a factor, I find it funny that Obama is getting MORE white votes than that old White Guy John Kerry did. It may be a factor. But the factor is more about being a DEMOCRAT and less about Obama being black.
August 26, 2008 at 12:48 pm
i’d just like to offer a friendly reminder to all my dearly beloved yanks that canadians are fucking AFFECTED by your elections, often more than our own. our country is your country’s bitch, so every time your government fucks around with something it either changes shit up here or sets a PRECEDENT that our conservative prime minister can later emulate. so while we’re not as directly affected as you, we’re goddamn-well affected, and we can’t vote AT ALL.
so MBB, while trix may be a newbie to the u.s., and while it’s frustrating for people on the outside of any situation to insert themselves into it without a lived understanding of its context and nuances, you also haven’t had the experience that trixie has had of having to be a passive observer of ANOTHER COUNTRY’S elections that have a sweeping impact on your life and your country and your family and to be completely powerless in deciding their outcome. it’s all very complicated. this is a critique solely of the point you made that canadians don’t have a dog in this fight (see b, bangie). we’re not citizens, but we take the collateral damage.
my stand-up comedian friend said it well: say canada and the u.s. are two people sitting on a couch at a party. if somebody comes and vomits on the u.s., a little bit is going to get on canada.
so let’s all drink responsibly, yes?
August 26, 2008 at 12:48 pm
Alrighty then! Champagne, anyone?!
August 26, 2008 at 12:50 pm
Did I not just say we were having a meeting? Why are you still showing out, SINROO and KATASTIC? Don’t make me come up there! (See how I did that? Used the all caps?)
I swear I’m working on a new topic. One that will be fun for errybody.
August 26, 2008 at 12:51 pm
@britneycanadawhore: I love Canadians. Everyone knows this.
August 26, 2008 at 12:54 pm
Left on the message board of the Washington Post:
Your guy won, we get it. But we need each other, and we must bridge our differences if we stand a chance of undoing the damage of the past 8 years. Too many of you treat the rest of us Obama non-worshippers like idiots or losers or racists, and that’s not very welcoming. (And if you’re turning off fellow Democrats and liberals with your sense of superiority, then think of what you’re doing to those undecideds who we’ll need to win in November.)
If we haven’t already bought into the belief that Obama is the second coming of Christ, no amount of denigrating and belittling will bring us into the fold. So instead let’s focus on what we have in common – we all want to turn this country around. Mr & Mrs Smith from Colorado don’t care that Obama is charismatic, they just want to know how he will improve their lives and those of their children.
If you insist on making them feel like stupid, inferior losers for not already worshipping Obama – the way you treat us Clinton supporters – then good luck building the majority we need to win.
I think the question to ask yourselves is this: would you rather be self righteously correct and potentially lose the election, or graciously and magnanimously welcome us non-believers into the fold so we can all work for and celebrate President Obama’s victory together? Either overlook our anger or empathize with our disappointment – whatever you can manage – but stop being such poor winners and let’s do this together.
August 26, 2008 at 12:54 pm
@sin – and we, in emulation of the infinite grace and humility that is embodied in Her Majesty the Queen, love you right back.
August 26, 2008 at 1:01 pm
I think writing a post about how misogynists sunk Hillary is perfectly legitimate, even if I don’t think that’s all that brought her down- you’ll get no argument from me that it’s a factor. They are, similarly, trying to use the same tactics agianst Obama- that’s why all the Muslim rumors, etc. I am similarly outraged at the sexism AND the racism. However, Trixie is talking specifically about one section of voters whom she PERSONALLY met, so she can speak as to them being racist or not better than the rest of us.
And, heh, him being a better or worse Democrat is a separate argument. I think Hillary would be running just as centrist a campaign as Barack is, had she won. They’re really very similar- seven votes differ last year, and he has the most liberal voting record in the Senate, actually- so I would argue that he’s the more Democratically-aligned of the two, all of his speeches for unity notwithstanding. I’m sure you disagree (heh), but that’s my opinion. Listen, I liked (still like) Hillary, and even liked some of her policies better than Barack’s- her health care plan, for instance. But I liked his as much, and I thought he was more electable, considering the wide-spread animosity against her. The question for me is not so much “who’s a better Democrat?” as “who’s poised to be more effective?”. At this moment, it’s him. I think HRC supporters who would rather vote for McCain than Obama have lost sight of the point, or were never terribly strong Democrats anyway- but that’s my opinion.
August 26, 2008 at 1:07 pm
And let me reiterate that from the beginning, I have never liked the rancourousness on either side of the Hillary/ Obama fight. I have friends who think Hillary is the racist anti-Christ right wing-hand puppet from Hell, and I have friends who think Obama is a sexist woman-hating smarmy right-wing religious nut who secretly hates gay people. (I AM NOT POINTING FINGERS at anyone here, BEFORE ANYONE FREAKS OUT. I am talking about people I know in “real life”.). I think BOTH sides are wrong, that they’re both pretty freaking great liberal politicians, and that if God(dess) is good and Obama takes the White House, they can transform this country together. But all the hate and suspicion and rancour on both sides needs to ease. Including amongst these women Trixie talked to.
August 26, 2008 at 1:12 pm
@katastic: Do you know who the most liberal Senator was in 2004? Magically, that year it was Kerry. Shocking, that right? And the only time I ever heard the Muslim rumors was from right-wing NUTS or um, Obama supporters. And your most liberal Senator voted FOR the FISA bill. And the last president that transformed the country? Bill Clinton. Maybe you should ask your Obama-supporting friends that maybe they’d get more people on their side if they didn’t shit on him and call him a racist. K? Thanks.
August 26, 2008 at 1:14 pm
Dammit! I wish someone would talk about what’s really bugging me and that is that Joe Biden has had cancer (lymphoma, I do believe), and that he has reigned in that wormhole to the dark side for credit card companies, DELAWARE, for 35 YEARS!!!
Fuck the Hillary haters and fuck the people who still think Obama is a Muslim. I don’t have time for The Stupids.
I want to know why ABSOLUTELY NO ONE IS TALKING ABOUT THE TWIN ELEPHANTS IN THE ROOM regarding the nomination of Biden for VPOTUS. Yeah, yeah, I get it–it’s all done and all that, but I think the rose-colored glasses need a break as far as beating McCain in November are concerned. Don’t get me wrong, I think Biden is fab…but is definitely the second-best choice for the job.
Oh, and Trixie, I appreciate your eye-witness accounts of the goings on. You’re someone I can trust–CNN, FOX, MSNBC? Mmmm…notsomuch.
August 26, 2008 at 1:28 pm
@SinRo: Jesus Christ, SinRoo. I am so sick of getting shouted at by Hillary AND Obama supporteres because I happen to think that they’re BOTH pretty freaking fantastic. The extremes to which this primary has gone- and is still going, evidently- are ludicrous. I am so fucking sick of this.
Of COURSE I defend Bill Clinton, all the time. I don’t believe for a minute he, or Hillary, are racist because Bill gave one questionable comment about Jesse Jackson. Similarly, I don’t believe Obama is sexist because he gave a female reporter a pet name. I think BOTH of their campaigns used those weapons to some extenet, however unwittingly. However, based on their voting records, I don’t think EITHER of them is racist or sexist or homophobic. You may want some more graciousness from Obama supporters- which I agree, should be given. But there are some ungracious Hillary supporters, too. Just as Bill Clinton shouldn’t be labelled a “racist”, Obama shouldn’t be labelled sexist- because it’s not true, on either account.
And yes, Obama voted for FISA. Hillary voted for the war. What’s your point? Neither of them are perfect. I dpn’t worship either of them. And as for John Kerry’s voting record- I think he would’ve made a hell of a president, too. Beside the point. If you don’t think the Republicans are trying, and will try to, use race against Obama, you are kidding yourself. JUST as they can and have used sexism against Hillary.
I am tired of having the same argument over and over again, whether with supporters of Obama or Hillary. It’s ridiculous and reactionary and people need to calm down.
August 26, 2008 at 1:33 pm
@katastic: My point is that you buy into the media pretense that he is the most liberal senator. When he is in fact, NOT. Which is fine. It’s the idea that he gets liberal cred when he has neither the record nor the history to prove that.
And I wasn’t born yesterday. Republicans are the party of racial politics. Isn’t it fun how this year it was the Dems that played the race card?
August 26, 2008 at 1:44 pm
@SinRo: It’s the National Journal (http://nj.nationaljournal.com/voteratings/), not some media conspiracy. Whatever your argument, Hillary and Barack are 10 votes apart. Their voting records are so close as to be nearly indistinguishable. He’s liberal, can we agree on that? He’s a liberal, she’s a liberal. Ils sont Democrats. (apologies to Marni for pidgin French).
And yes, thank God we can play the race card, because God knows the MSM would’nt let us play the sexism card. I hope McCain slips up and calls him a “Negro” on camera. That would be great.
August 26, 2008 at 1:49 pm
@katastic: Did I say it was a conspiracy? No. I said that shockingly (or not) every Dem that runs is somehow the most liberal that same exact year they run.
August 26, 2008 at 1:55 pm
@Paisley: I do not think Biden is fab and CANNOT understand for the life of me why everyone seems so in love with him.
August 26, 2008 at 2:08 pm
@The Domina: He’s certainly a good Democrat, but Jeeeezush Christmas, people, the very fact that he’s from Delaware was never brought up during the primaries and I.just.will.never.get.over.it. Fuck!
Delaware changed their state legislation to run diametrically opposite the rest of the country with regard to how credit card companies have been dry fucking us for the last 25 years. They started this method of screwing consumers and turning every man, woman and child into an indentured slave by coaxing them into credit agreements that make the mafia look fair and equitable. This brought a lot of high finance business to Delaware, sure, while sending a snowball downhill that is now the credit fucking fiasco we all live with now as others followed their lead.
I am aghast that people care more about picking apart these other nonsensical aspects of the campaign than the fact that Biden could very well have a relapse (lymphatic cancer is one of the most lethal types of carcinoma) and that as far as his state’s politics go, blech!
He was a very, very poor choice in my opinion. *shakes head*
August 26, 2008 at 2:10 pm
@paisley: I mean I remember liberal bloggers used to refer to him as
Joe Biden- MBNA
LOL. How quickly we forget and change our minds.
August 26, 2008 at 2:11 pm
Kumbaya ….
August 26, 2008 at 2:15 pm
Sad. Its simple, race over gender. Those same people may want Dick Cheney as the running mate too? That would seal the deal with woman and lesbian hating all in one happy oval office where they can run around playing grab ass with the sexretaries.
August 26, 2008 at 2:18 pm
@Paisley: I know, we forget too quickly when the MSM is not shoving it down our throats.
Of course I’m biased but I would have rathered Richardson, Kaine, or Hil herself (not that she necessarily would have accepted).
Also, I decided McCain’s best choice would be Condi b/c then they have both the African American and the woman card, not that he would ever choose her.
August 26, 2008 at 2:18 pm
@paisleypajamas, SinRoo, Domina: Damn it! Don’t you get it? Biden is the clean and articulate candidate.
I am itching to see who McCain picks for VP, so that I can make fun of him too. Please let it be Mitt Romney:
Walnuts/Mittens 08
August 26, 2008 at 2:28 pm
@ SinRoo: HA! I’m totally going to refer to him that way from now on. Watch them gut me over on Gawker!
@Amoureuse: Oh, don’t get me wrong. I was thinking what a cool dude Biden was when I first heard he may be running for prez on Bill Maher’s show eons ago.
Now? He looks like he has aged 10 years in 3 and although I think he is well versed in foreign policy, I think he’s got a lot of ‘splainin’ to doooo regarding his states’ business practices and the fallout.
August 26, 2008 at 2:29 pm
Brit, Trix: Now it’s my turn to be perplexed. Because I can’t think of a situation in which I would judge the citizens of another country for their voting choices, regardless of how intertwined our countries were. How could I, when I don’t pay their taxes or live under their government of laws or identify as a citizen of their country? I certainly don’t believe I have a legitimate say in how Mexicans or Canadians or Russians should vote, even though “stuff” that happens in those places affects me. If the theme of the week is “America sucks,” I get it. I think it’s probably the official world anthem by now. But no one can understand as intimately as we do why we’re down here in this hole we’ve dug ourselves, and at the end of the day no one can dig us out but us. It’s our funeral, not anyone else’s.
August 26, 2008 at 2:36 pm
Well, except for the Iraqis. It’s their funeral, too. I will now accept voting suggestions from all Iraqi BCP readers. The lines are open.
August 26, 2008 at 2:43 pm
PaisleyPajamas: I am so stealing this phrase: “credit card companies have been dry fucking us for the last 25 years”. I too was incredibly disappointed by the Biden pick largely because of his actions in the bankruptcy legislation.
August 26, 2008 at 2:46 pm
McCain/Romney: Billionaire Boys Club 08′
August 26, 2008 at 2:50 pm
@notmandy: Seriously! How handy it was for them to make it twice as hard for people to file for personal bankruptcy as they handed out mortgages and credit card debt they knew could never be repaid!
I was aghast at the choice and now I don’t know what the hell to feel as they bring out the rah-rah cheerleading squad for the convention. Yay TEAM! It’s all about OUR TEAM winning, right? Fuck me.
August 26, 2008 at 2:53 pm
Despite odd accusations that I was interfering in the American election with this post, or saying all Hillary supporters are insane racists, my point was merely this: the Republicans are the enemy. All this visceral and at times nonsensical infighting seems to be causing people to lose sight of who the real villains are.
Today I wrote a story about the sexism Hillary has faced and who are the next female presidential hopefuls. Did I have no right to write that story because I am Canadian?
I am perplexed and wounded.
August 26, 2008 at 2:59 pm
@Trixie: I love that you are Canadian. Canadians are allowed to have an opinion. I myself being not of American born-ness understand this and would never say that you are not within your rights and what not to comment on it. My favorite coverage of American politics comes from the Economist.
And the Republicans however, may be WRONG and may be fucked up under bush but they are NOT an enemy. This isn’t a war, ya know? Some Republicans will vote for Barry. Some Dems will vote for McCain. It happens all the time. ;)
August 26, 2008 at 3:12 pm
@trixie: I think the only thing that might pertain to your lovely Canadian-ness is that if you haven’t spent much time in the US yet, you might not realize the intricacies of how when some people say they are Dem or Rep, they are not necessarily Dem/Rep for life, it can be malleable depending on the candidate and the person. But you have every right to comment on the election anyway, I work with a Welshman and we discuss it all the time and he often has some interesting “outsider” perspectives on the whole thing.
August 26, 2008 at 3:18 pm
Trix, correct me if I’m wrong, but I haven’t heard you say most if any of the things attributed to you here. And IMHO, that SM comparison was super-unfair, considering how you’re in here calmly and intelligently answering the points being raised.
Myrtle and Domina – the funny thing is that, weven hen you live in Canada, you almost hear more about American politics than you do about Canadian ones. So, with respect, I don’t think this has anything to do with Trixie not being privy to “intricacies” of American political life. I understand, Myrtle, that as far as you’re concerned, national boundaries are hard and fast when it comes to these things, but in a way, it’s nigh impossible for us to agree with you on that when you live your whole national life in the shadow of your neighbour. I get where you’re coming from, but on the other hand, I think Americans are too quick to shun “foreign influences” as somehow nefarious. Particularly for a nation of immigrants!
August 26, 2008 at 3:18 pm
MBB, you’re missing my point. it’s not about judging how people are voting, or judging anything. it’s about recognizing that we DO have a stake in your election, albeit a different, less immediate one.
we don’t just have opinions up here, we have REAL LIVES that are REALLY affected by your elections. it’s not just something that we read about or follow on the news. we may not be citizens, but we’re involved, because the united states is not just some random country whose politics we’re meddling in. you come from the most powerful country in the world, and the privilege that that affords you is not having to appreciate the ways that your politics really DO fuck with the rest of us, canada in particular. your recession is our recession. your economy is our economy. we bend over and take it while most americans can’t even name our prime minister. it’s not about judgment, it’s about the global picture. and unless you’re china, you’re sitting right in the most myopic powerhouse that this globe boasts. i mean, the whole WORLD is following this election for a reason. we just have a bigger stake in it than say, lithuania.
August 26, 2008 at 3:20 pm
The story you wrote (and I’d love to read it) is a different thing entirely than calling an entire political party of a country not your own “the enemy.” Whose enemy are we talking about? Yours? How so, if they don’t govern you? Mine? No. I will decide, on my own, who is and is not my enemy. I’m married to a Republican. I’m the child of a Republican. Neither of those men are evil or my enemy, and their voting choices – just like mine – are complex. And all I’m saying is that I think it’s more complicated than you make it out to be, and you might understand that better if you were more of a stakeholder. Why would it hurt your feelings for me to point out that you don’t have a vote and you can’t understand as well as we do why Americans vote the way they do? I’m not Canadian, and I don’t understand Canadians as well as you do, and I’m not as informed about Canadian issues as you are, and my opinion about Canadian politics is simply not worth as much as yours is because I cannot vote in a Canadian election, nor do I pay Canadian taxes, nor do I have to abide by Canadian law. Say it all day long, because it doesn’t hurt my feelings. Why should it?
August 26, 2008 at 3:21 pm
for fuck’s sake, we’ve been at war since sept. 11, too, because of the VOMIT.
August 26, 2008 at 3:34 pm
@BCW, Pilgrim, and Trixie: I wasn’t trying to say you are ignorant of US politics, but that sometimes when the Dem/Rep divide is represented on TV it is not always so clear that the boundary is not as strict as MSM makes it out to be. I fully realize that your (and other countries’) politics are influenced by our President.
August 26, 2008 at 3:37 pm
@dom – thanks, that’s all i was asking.
also, we have a multiple-party system up here, so canadians are just as likely to understand the subtleties of voting choices as they are to view the u.s. as one big giant black-and-white cookie.
August 26, 2008 at 3:38 pm
hi everybody! i am here to say things, b/c there seem to be two sides here, and i have thoughts that align w/ both.
@trix: these women are batshit, racist assholes. BUT it’s kind of hard to tell that from your original post. i mean, i get what you’re saying here — i am notoriously critical of nader supporters from 2000. i still jump on people who lived in swing states and voted for his ego-centric ass, because it was self-defeating. they sacrificed the environment for a candidate. in that sense, yeah, i think it’s not IDEAL that registered dems may vote for mccain, but that’s because i assume that democrat means what i believe, ie pro choice, pro gay rights, pro social services, social medicine, etc. many dems are old school dems, or southern dems, or believe in social services but are homophobes or religious and anti-abortion. a socially conservative dem might have very little reason to vote the party line. maybe these women just wanted to vote for a woman. maybe they wanted someone a little more conservative (or fiscally sound, bc, i gotta tell you, obama needs to do some serious number crunching). maybe they were just crazy racists. hard to tell. anyway, much as i wish everyone was pro-choice, pro-gay, pro-healthcare, they aren’t. even the dems.
BUT i agree w/ sinn and amoureuse that you unfortunately selected a hot-button issue that the media is pushing right now. and instead of asking, why would, say, a pro-choice woman vote for mccain? or a woman on welfare? or a MAN on welfare? or a BLACK man with medical problems? you happened to see a group of women with no clear ideological viewpoints who were blasting obama, and you left out the more nutso-aspects of the blog post, which got everrone alllll riled up. i would like to make it clear that i in no way think that YOU were trying to personify all hillary supporters as spiteful and racist, but the media kind of us. because nothing hits home like a good generalization.
@MBB — i hear what you’re saying here, but i really disagree. and not because i’m in lerv w/ a canadian. the thing is, we, as citizens, make the decisions. we vote. but the US is a PARADIGM. everything we do affects everyone else. yes, canada is our bitch. yes, part of that was THEIR voting choice (read: harper is a dick), but part of it is the nature of the political and economic situation. canadians will not, in the foreseeable future, be able to vote in our elections. so that’s not an issue. but i think it is ESSENTIAL that outside entities be acknowledged and listened to.
i mean, we can’t just live in a bubble. well, actually, we can. and we do. and that’s part of hte problem. just because we LIVE life here doesn’t mean that people from other countries won’t have valuable insight on the ramifications of the decisions that so many voters make flippantly.
bottom line, i think that trix being canadian has nothing to do with her ability to comment on our political system. she won’t have the same viewpoint we do, it’s true. she probably doesn’t feel the bitter sting of disappointment and the ache of foreboding that i feel right now, thinking aboutt his fall, the next four to eight years, and supreme court appointments and abortion rights. but she can give us a valuable perspective. we can chose to acknowledge or ignore it.
@ whoever said the convention is not the place for protests — the dems are a fractured bunch of bastards. generally the repubs are all cohesive and shit, and they get more done. i always lament this state of affairs. i heard bubba speak about it when i was in college; we let our minor differences divide us. what makes this a complicated situation is that the dems’ investment in different causes, our willingness to debate, argue, fight for what we believe to arrive at the best option, is also at the heart of what makes it the party i love. it’s a catch 22. without it, we would arrive at stale, party line decisions with little input from the people. with it, we are fractured.
it’s very, very frustrating. but i believe too strongly in our right to express what we believe, and there is no BETTER place to state your dissatisfaction with the democratic party than at the convention. these women may be horrible, terrible people, but i will continue to cast my vote for leaders that stand by their right to protest whatever the hell they want to, no matter how much i disagree.
August 26, 2008 at 3:40 pm
where’s NeverNikki? surely she has an opinion.
HA.
August 26, 2008 at 3:41 pm
Val & Trix and Sin & BCW: You each have valid, reasonably well-informed points and perspectives. In a sense, you’re all “right” because what’s being discussed is essentially a personal experience in a political world. Your opinions can co-exist in the same room, ideally without feelings being irreparably hurt when all is said and done.
I admire all of you, and at the risk of sounding like certain people we know, this place is richer because of your voices and the ways that you express them.
(Also, without getting into too existential a space in my head I do sometimes feel like there’s a war of sorts on women, but that extends to a global level, where I suppose Republicans would be more of a variation on a breed than anything else. Orangutans to apes, etc.)
August 26, 2008 at 3:45 pm
@BCW: You know what’s weird, I always thought the more party choices you have the more malleable the system seemed b/c there are more nuances but it seems like the US media always represents it as an all or nothing type of situation b/c there are only 2 parties (well, viable ones) to choose from. Not sure if that is true or not, but I imagine it would be more interesting the more choice you have.
August 26, 2008 at 3:47 pm
AYL: Spoken like a true smartass.
Trixie: Come here, I will feed you hashbrown casserole and sodie and it will be alright.
August 26, 2008 at 3:47 pm
@Trixie: First off, apologies for the SM thing. You are discussing/debating with those whose opinions differ, so you deserve better than such a comparison.
I think MBB makes a really good point re: ‘the Republicans are the enemy’ thing. It’s not really true. This is one of the reasons I hate the 2-party system; it tries to simplify things way too much. Very few, if any, people believe one party’s platform down to the last word. People vote the way they do for various reasons, some of which you may not agree with. But that’s still their right. We don’t know why these people supported Hillary in the first place, so we can’t really assume they’d automatically switch to Obama.
August 26, 2008 at 4:14 pm
When Inchworm speaks, I might listen. Keep that in mind for future hostage negotiations, people.
August 26, 2008 at 4:15 pm
Can we pleaaassse have a thread for Clinton’s speech tonight? Jez might post one, but I have a feeling that someone might spoil the evening for me with a snide remark or comment.
I am off to go figure out if you can mix Benadryl with alcohol.
August 26, 2008 at 4:16 pm
I wrote a post about PUMAs on my blog earlier today in response to a post that infuriated me on another blog. I hope you don’t mind if I quote myself here: “To be honest, I don’t know a single Democratic woman who regards them as anything but a (possibly Republican-fronted — one of PUMA’s founders donated $500 to the McCain campaign in 2000, yet suspiciously has never donated to Clinton) fringe group hellbent on making the rest of us Hillary supporters look like deranged assholes. Overwhelmingly, Clinton supporters have let the conversation about HRC’s treatment during primary season die down — I’d say because we quickly learned our concerns were being derided as the insane ramblings of women scorned. Now that the PUMAs have arisen from the ashes of the Clinton campaign, exemplifying liberal males’ worst fears about their female counterparts, Clinton supporters in general are being categorically lumped in with them, as if we all plan to abandon the values that drew us to Clinton in the first place for a ride on the Straight-Talk Express.”
The problem with bringing up the PUMAs over and over again is that it reinforces the idea that all or most HRC supporters think this way. Obviously, I know Trixie doesn’t believe this, and I hate the idea that we need to stifle any discussion of the alleged “PUMA phenomenon” as a means of protecting ourselves from a sort of snowball effect. On the other hand, giving the PUMAs press gives credence to the idea that this really is a phenomenon, which I don’t believe.
Overall, I thought the discussion in this thread was amazing. There are a lot of really smart women on BCP!
August 26, 2008 at 4:20 pm
I like the approach election discussions that Shakespeare’s Sister has here.
I’m all for debates and I like BCP because the disagreements here tend to remain civil. And you all are so smart that by the time I read comments, someone else has already made all of the points I wanted to make.
August 26, 2008 at 4:27 pm
@KittenFluff: Most of what is manufactured by the media is crap. That’s why it is every voter’s responsibility to approach more reliable resources, i.e., print, that have their butt on the line if they print something incorrectly. It’s appalling to watch how badly the news organizations handle all of this. Just last week, before the DNC, they had a shot of Hillary before the announcement and her CG said that she was a candidate for president…uh, whoops?! Nope. Whoops doesn’t cover it. Unfortunately, there is a large segment of the population for whom TV = THE ONLY REALITY THEY KNOW. We’re doomed.
@ amoureuse: Benadryl and alcohol? Only if you want to wake up next week. Actually, given the current political climate, not such a bad idea!
August 26, 2008 at 4:29 pm
@KittenFluff – I totally think the PUMAs are working for McCain and aren’t actually Democrats at all.
August 26, 2008 at 4:31 pm
@domina – meh, it depends. i vote NDP so i essentially throw my vote away. did you guys know we have a marijuana party? i should really vote for them.
August 26, 2008 at 4:38 pm
@Kitten Fluff & Bowling: There was actually a rumor going around that all of the millions of dollars contributed to Obama’s prelim campaign early on was actually Republican–on the advice of senior Biblicans, like Karl Rove as they saw Obama as an easier foe to defeat than HRC.
Just sayin’.
The PUMA’s tactics definitely fit well with all that has gone on. Makes one wonder if they are someone’s payroll?
August 26, 2008 at 4:39 pm
@Brit: The Marijuana Party? Now that’s a party where there would be very little fighting. Where do I sign up?
August 26, 2008 at 4:44 pm
For the first time in my life I am voting for prez in a non-swing (and solidly blue) state, so I kind of like the idea of considering my other options instead of my usual sense of obligation to vote Dem.
August 26, 2008 at 4:50 pm
@notmandy
as long as polls in NY are strong for obama, i am writing in HRC.
August 26, 2008 at 4:53 pm
that said, i am campaigning for obama in swing states, to the extent that my schedule allows.
August 26, 2008 at 5:00 pm
this thread is more popular than HRC and obama COMBINED!
August 26, 2008 at 5:06 pm
@inchworm: I believe I am currently in a state that historically votes Republican even though all of our most recent Governors have been Dems, but maybe, possibly could go Dem for the Pres election this year, or so the TV told me.
August 26, 2008 at 5:48 pm
When I say the Republicans are the enemy, I am referring to the assholes in power who started a fraudulent war that’s ended up killing thousands of innocent people, including U.S. soldiers, and want to take women back a few generations. Not card-carrying Republicans, but the assholes in power and the one who wants to continue down that path.
And also, hey — it’s not a uniquely American thing that sometimes people vote Democrat, and sometimes they vote Republican. If it was, nothing would ever change. In Canada people flip between the Liberals and the Conservatives all the time.
Obviously, that is how democracy works around the world. Sometimes people change their minds, and governments consequently change!
What I am saying is this: I don’t understand how you can support Hillary Clinton’s policies yet say you’d rather vote for McCain than Obama. Nothing anyone has said here comes anywhere close to explaining it to me. It does not compute. Not voting at all because you’re mad? That I understand. Voting for the guy who’s diametrically opposed to your beloved candidate’s views and policies? That strikes me as lunacy.
I have spoken my piece, and I can assure you, I will be hard-pressed to ever type HRC’s name here again until everyone has calmed down.
August 26, 2008 at 6:32 pm
@ The Domnina: My TV tells me that they are counting on the woman, as in HRC, to deliver the “red meat” this evening. Which is appropo when you think about how women are always left to do the dirty work.
May HRC go off script and call out the entire party on their BS. She was sold out, plain and simple. Unless they have promised her a coveted position elsewhere in the admin in lieu of VP, I’d say she has been burned like no Democrat before her.
August 26, 2008 at 7:15 pm
Since I’ve just gotten home from work, I was unable to partake in this shitstorm today – which was probably a good thing. The only thing I would like to add is that I am scared – scared that years from now I will have to explain to a younger generation of women how the collective “we” let this election slip away and with it the right to choose, the Supreme Court, Title IX, etc.
August 26, 2008 at 8:03 pm
MsScarlet: I meant no harm!!!
August 26, 2008 at 8:17 pm
@ Trix: oh sweetie – that wasn’t directed at you – it was directed at pretty much everyone in this country who has complained for the last eight years, but will again allow us (“us” being the Dems) to lose an election. I’ll probably get slammed for this, but as a yellow dog democrat, I vote the party once the primaries are over, whether or not my favorite won. That’s just me. Hell, I voted for Dukakis!
@ Everyone – And my comments are never meant to directly or even indirectly anger any of the lovely ladies of BCP. At the risk of sounding cheesy, I value every person here and look forward to coming home and reading what you each share here on a daily basis.
August 26, 2008 at 8:53 pm
Trixie, I bet you’re regretting putting a toe in this water. I can read your blog posts and get where you’re coming from. It is not a shit-stirring but rather, observational and sprinkled with bemusement and humour. Unlike the response to this post. Shit women, if I wanted to see a dog fight, I’d go to the ‘belz posts. Some of you need to get a sense of humour – it’s the best way to deal with hot-button issues and tragedy – all of which is coming in November. Love you Trix. Don’t change your approach.
August 26, 2008 at 9:27 pm
@missbish: Gah, I hate the “get a sense of humor” argument. Yeah, humor can help you cope with things. But this stuff is important, and it makes sense for people to get riled up about it.
August 26, 2008 at 9:37 pm
There is only one good reason for Hillary supporters to vote for McCain. If Florida and Michigan votes counted, Hillary would and should be the THE Democratic candidate. If McCain wins the election, Hillary can run in 2012, if Obama wins, She cannot run until 2016. Who knows what will happen in eight years??? It’s only four years, and then Hillary can be THE real change that we all know she will be. Obama is leading us down a path I would rather not travel. Give McCain a Democratic controlled Senate and House, and he will not be able to mess things up too bad, at least not as bad as Obama. I truely believe in Hillary Clinton, and cannot fall in line behind Obama. With Obama, taxes will go through the roof; in four years, Hillary will have the ability to balance things is such a way that the country will change for the better for all of us. I am retired, and live on a fixed income. I cannot afford eight years of Obama. Who needs an upstart rockstar anyway??? A vote for McCain is a vote for Hillary in the future!
August 26, 2008 at 10:43 pm
You can diffuse the intensity of your point making with a bit of humour is all. Defensive much?
August 27, 2008 at 12:33 pm
But why would you WANT to diffuse the intensity of a point? Don’t serious issues deserve serious focus and attention?
I mean, I love being called a humorless feminist as much as the next hairy-legged manhater, but I don’t see why every point needs to be punctuated with a good Whackity-schmackity-doo.
August 27, 2008 at 12:37 pm
So true. There’s nothing I like less than “Oh, have a sense of humor already,” unless it’s some random man on the street telling me, “Smile, it can’t be that bad.”
People never say that shit to men, and for the record, I will cut them.
August 27, 2008 at 3:56 pm
It’s called maturity and humanity. Do you think talking in caps and making Trixie cry is the way to get your point across? No,it does make you look like a humourless misanthrope.
August 27, 2008 at 5:31 pm
So let me see if I can follow your mature and humane logic …
By not answering a question directly and speaking condescendingly to people, I can get folks to take me more seriously?
How’s that worked out for you so far?
August 27, 2008 at 7:17 pm
The condescension in the responses to this thread are what made me comment in the first place. I have no desire to beef with you but I too have a point to make and that is – why can’t the discussion of important issues be done in a way that includes all views. Intensity is rarely persuasive but rather, intimidating. Humour is the undertow of BCP and mixed with politics, humour makes points more poignant in my view. Jon Stewart and Colbert – where are you when I need you. See what I did there….
August 27, 2008 at 9:11 pm
I read through most of this thread and I have to say difference of opinions are a good thing, that makes us unique… live with it.
At the very start I was on board for a Hillary ticket, but after listening to Obama I switched.
For those who think Obama isn’t ready to lead this Nation you are partly right, with that being said do you honestly think Hillary is? ……
No one…. I repete, No one is ready to run the United States of America particularly if you have never done it. The Reps have forgotten the first few months of Bush’s rule… would you say that was a man ready to “Run” our country?
I tell you what.. vote for McCain, let him win the election…. then stand by and take your medicine.. you earned it
August 27, 2008 at 9:21 pm
I think the reason why Trixie, and others, keep discussing these Hillary supporters is out of fear that they will decide the election. I think the hope is that by discussing this, we will come up with a narrative that permits us to convince these people to vote Obama.
I still do not understand why Hillary supporters feel so disaffected. While the media may have been sexist, I am not aware of any instance of Obama or any of his campaigners making sexist remarks. Hostile, yes, but not sexist. Obviously I am not including loosely affiliated staffers who may have made remarks. In contrast, Hillary and her camp (Ferraro) absolutely raised race.
The other thing I do not understand are the claims that the nominating process was undemocratic. Of course it was undemocratic. It was never meant to be democratic. Nor is our general election democratic. In the absence of a tremendous lead in pledged delegates, the super-delegates could hypothetically tilt the vote the other way. How would that have been for democratic?
The arguments that “she won the big states”, “she won the swing states”, are excellent arguments for why the super-delegates should have gone for Hillary. However, the party has an (undemocatic) way of choosing a candidate, total delegates. Obama figured out a way to beat her in the count, plain and simple, by winning smaller (red) states and caucuses and persuading enough super-delegates.
Once it became clear that he had a simple majority of total delegates, it did boggle the mind of why she did not immediately drop out. I can only surmise that she was hoping Obama would have such a major gaffe that the super-delegates would be compelled to switch to her. This was certainly a possibility.
August 27, 2008 at 11:08 pm
Wow. A fight I didn’t start. Hell just froze over.
August 28, 2008 at 12:41 am
I didn’t cry THAT much. Just a lump in my throat and a few moments of utter and complete bewilderment and confusion and, well, yes, a bit of hurt feelings. But I shook it off!
August 28, 2008 at 10:11 am
Right. I’m horribly late to this party because, well, I wasn’t in the country, but I just wanted to leave a short comment.
Trixie, I so understand the need to just UNDERSTAND what the fuck goes on in the US, especially election-wise. And I too have often had my fingers burnt by blog posts in which I wonder why some Americans do certain stuff. It’s partly why I’m minoring in American Studies.
I find that the Americans I know will often wonder if I’m hating on America, or Americans, or their system, or if I’m just being uninformed, or I’ll get a comment on how I should keep my mouth shut anyway, cause I’m not American myself. It’s annoying that curiosity concerning a country with SUCH extremes is so often misunderstood or misconstrued.
So please don’t stop reflecting on the American elections. You ask the same questions as I do.
And if the elections ever get you down, just do as I do and listen to Time For Some Campaignin’.
*hums* “I really love change, have I made myself clear”
August 28, 2008 at 4:23 pm
Professor Farnsworth? Holy shit, someone else reads (or at least read the glory days of) The Dugout?