While the subject of dating or loving or fucking a bisexual woman is something many lesbians won’t touch with a ten foot pole (let alone an 8″ dildo), there remain amongst queer women the novices, the naive, the romantic and the logical. Whether it’s the lure of the taboo, the probability of success in any relationship regardless of sexual orientation, being wet behind the ears or truly in love, bisexual women and lesbians manage to make connections more often than not.Outside of bars, animal shelters, vegan coffee shops or Dolores Park, lezzies looking for love or a good old NSA romp have perused Craigslist’s W4W ads for years. The ads that bisexual women post, in particular, provide some of the most hilarious and infuriating entertainment a girl could ask for. I’ve been known to read them out loud to M in a multitude of badly done accents until we are both crying with laughter. A few years ago she programmed an online game of Bisexual Bingo, so she and her friends could amuse themselves whenever an unsuspecting bicurious gal wandered in, tossing around typical bi buzzwords like: “husband,” “34DD,” or “wet.” The other night we were watching The Craft, and regarding Fairuza Balk M asked, “So, bisexual? Or just crazy?”
Check out the insanity of these bi ads on CL:
SAD BI AD NO. 1: “Thank you for all those that have replied.We need a few more to definatly sign on.I would like to plan this for Nov.19,20,21 .those that have replied let me know what works for you.For those with interest, this is a playdate for a few hours around noon after all the kids are off to school.I provide a suite in Burlington and we meet to let loose and get a bit frisky.I am the only male.It is mainly for you women to let loose and try new things.No presure just a chance to get out.I do this around every six weeks starting in the fall and not during the summer(kids,vacations etc).I’m starting a little late this year.Let me know if you are interested.”
SAD BI AD NO. 2: “Ok I am going to try this again. I have been using craigslist for a while now trying to make some friends. It seems like a joke. It seems that people respond but then you reply back either they write you back with oh im too busy or some other lame excuse. I am 32 and I am just trying to make some decent friends. I tryed hard to find a bi girl who wanted to have a threesome with me and my boyfriend but I guess I am going to give up that idea for a while so here I am back to the friend thing again. Of course I am sure I will get more flakey people to write and say how they are this and that and you hear from them once or twice and then thats it. Oh well its only the internet right????”
Good times, good times.
Fun and games aside, the Sugar Walls gang wanted to dive deep (sorry) into the controversy and criticism of bisexual women by lesbians: What’s really behind it? Is it personal, political or both? Why is it so hard to live and let live, as victims ourselves of the same bullshit? Are bi women really as fickle, irresponsible and peen-leaning as they’re made out to be? Bona fide bi hottie kadinsky weighs in with the resident BCP dykes, after the jump!
inchworm
Everybody hates a bisexual.
Alternately labeled as risky, fake, and selfish, bisexual women are the lowest rung in the gay ladder. I’ve always taken issue with the argument that bisexual women are either straight and just playing around or on their way to full on gay — there are plenty of women out there who are genuinely attracted to both sexes (BCW can attest to this). But, uh, I’d stay away from them.
I can’t help it! I have many bi friends, and I also don’t take my own advice — I’ve dated a few bi ladies in my time. But it’s still my advice, and here’s why:
Every bi woman I’ve ever known (this is not counting lesbians who identify as bi when they first come out) has ended up with a dude. Now, I don’t think this means they were straight or even ARE straight. Their attraction to women is alive, and maybe they aren’t even MORE attracted to men. But bottom line is, there are more straight men out there than gay women. I am not into dudes at all, and I hear y’all bitching about the number of quality of men out there. Yeah, lesbians are higher quality (;-)), but we are much, much fewer. It’s basic probability — if you can fall in love with men and women, you’re more likely to end up with a guy. Also, it’s easier to be with men in our society. I mean, you can legally marry them! And all those basic things like marriage and family are easier to picture in hetero form because we see that all the time.
So, what does this really boil down to? Not much. Like I said, I have dated bi women despite the fact that I regarded them as risky, perhaps because I was young and not so worried about risk taking, or, more likely, just because I liked them. You can’t argue with love and all that.
But all my bi and bi-curious pals? I won’t be setting you up with any of my lesbian friends, unless said friend is looking for hook ups only. I don’t want them to get hurt and I DEFINITELY don’t want to get shit a few months down the road for setting them up with some bi chick.
B4D
I’ve had some experiences with women who were bi. But guess what? I didn’t necessarily know they were bi until after the breakups. So, all of that time I spent inside my head wondering, “What’s wrong with her/me/us?” it became crystal clear after a while. It was her, not me.
In my experience, the trick with a bi woman is to not let your heart get involved, because they will always go back to a man. Is that a subconscious thing for bi women? That being with a man is a safe place? To be with a man who is a provider and better yet, provide a sense of so called ‘normalcy’, according to society? I have never – and maybe my experience is limited – met a woman who identified as bi who is now in a lifelong relationship with a woman. In fact, a woman I loved with all of my heart is now married to a man and has one child, with another on the way.
As I’ve grown older, my heart has grown more protective. If I met a bi gal who just wanted a physical thing, I might look into it. If I met a bi woman who wanted a relationship, I’d have to think long and hard about it. But then again, you don’t necessarily choose who you fall in love with, so maybe I’d take a chance with my heart open to the idea.
I understand that females like Tila Tequila make people roll their eyes and say “uh huh, sure…” but it’s not really for anyone else to say. Yes, fucking Tila Tequila makes me want to vomit like a bad hangover, but what frustrates me about her is not her sexuality, but how she chooses to make money off of it in a cheesy, tacky way that furthers the bad name that bisexuals already have. And yes, that’s not really fair of me because, sa da tay, it’s her life, etc.
kadinsky
Just like everyone else, bisexuals struggle with their sexual identity at an early age. The old societal norm for a girl to date a boy is ever present, and (I’m happy to say) the newer societal norm of girls dating girls or boys dating boys is also present. But what if you find yourself, as a teen, interested in both sexes? I’ll skip all the identity angst and cut straight to the chase; where does a closeted bi go for support? Sure, the gay community has included us and the transsexuals in their huddle (see LGBT), but it’s actually the gay community that most often has the strongest dislike for bisexuals. Nearly every lesbian I know has had a run in with a girl who ended up causing distress by ‘not really being gay’, and the kicker is that if that bi-girl you wished you’d never met actually was gay she would have a whole community of gays to support her. But because lesbians are so often mistrustful of bi’s, the feeling is one of alienation and frustration, not inclusion. Bisexual men have it even worse, as they are most often viewed by heteros as “freaks”, “perverts” or nothing but a transmitter of HIV. And both bi-men and bi-women have to deal with the stigma that we should just “pick a side” or “grow out of this phase”.
Kinsey identified heterosexuals at 0 on his scale and homosexuals at the opposite end of the scale at 6. You’d think that bisexuals would be a 3, right? But no, everyone in between is classified as “bisexual”, allowing for vague metrics like “primary sexual attraction” and “some sexual attraction (to a particular gender)”. For this reason I think the Kinsey scale is bollocks, because regardless of how many relationships with lesbians or hetero men I may have in my lifetime, it doesn’t discount the fact that I am equally attracted to both genders. If someone is gay but lives as a hetero for many years before coming out, are they only considered gay from their coming out point? No, we would say he/she was a gay man/woman and not feel the need to qualify exactly how long they have been gay. I am not comfortable with assigning levels of bisexuality, and until someone shows me corresponding levels of hetero or homosexuality I do not accept Kinsey and his findings.
So, what’s it like to date as a bisexual? Well, it’s mostly woven with a lot of omission. And here is where I truly do sympathize with my lesbian sisters who have gotten involved with a woman who turned out not to be gay. She probably didn’t tell you up front that she was bi, or worse, she really wasn’t bi and was simply experimenting. If she later went on to get with a guy, you probably didn’t entertain the possibility that she COULD have been bi and instead wrote her off as an evil bitch who fucked with your feelings. But what’s the alternative? If she told you in the beginning that she was bi, I guarantee you she would have been holding her breath just waiting for you to curse her out or watching all the interest you had in her just fade from your face, instantly assigned to the discard pile, a no longer viable option and not worth pursuing.
We get rejected by lesbians because we don’t fit their ethics and most men view us as a mechanism for their own sexual gratification, completely ignoring all other aspects of the equation. Lesbians will reject the notion of dating a bisexual woman because we are seen as vacillaters who just can’t make up their minds and are bound to break your heart, when in fact there is every reason to pursue a relationship with a bi woman if you found yourself attracted to her qualities to begin with. Men almost never take us seriously, and once it sinks in that you really are equally attracted to your own gender as well as his, you are automatically labeled a cheater, a whore, a freak and a liar. Enter the Craigslist contingent.
In my “research”, I have found that the majority of CL ads involving bisexual anything may actually be posted by genuine bisexuals. My theory is that since dating can be so difficult (especially for a bi-woman looking to date a female), it’s easier to say, “Fuck it. I’ll date Roger in the mainstream and just get my sexual satisfaction wherever I can”. And in that respect, a CL ad for WSW sex (as distasteful as it is) is almost a guaranteed way to get laid without having to lie to some poor lesbian about where you see the relationship going. I imagine for bi-men, just keeping the whole thing on the down low is easier than trying to explain it to your girlfriend/wife and have her feel as though you’re just a latent homosexual who lied to her all this time. (Uh, but down low or not, SAFE SEX GODDAMMIT!) The practicality of using CL is of course, non existent. Other options include lifestyle parties but these are most often swingers parties and that whole scene is just icky, there are rules which do not suit everyone and there are usually more men expecting to get laid than one would care for. There are a select few ‘groups’ shall we say that host lifestyle parties with a decidedly higher admissions policy. At these events, no single men are allowed, many are restricted to members only and the emphasis is on the women’s sexual satisfaction. Being bisexual also does not automatically equal an ‘open relationship’, wherein either party is free to have sex outside the relationship. But being with a bi-person means you do need to have very honest, very upfront and very realistic discussions about sex. If you’re dating a bisexual, I don’t believe you should resign yourself to the fact that your partner will have sex with someone else whether you like it or know about it. Cheating is cheating, doesn’t matter who you slept with or what they had in their pants. But conversely, if you are bisexual and your partner is not, it doesn’t mean you have free reign to sleep with your own gender because that somehow doesn’t count. Again, cheating is cheating. Be honest, be receptive to discussing sexuality with your partner and remember what it is that attracted you to them in the first place instead of focusing on the bi label.
Now, go forth and love.
BAngieB
My general feeling about sexuality is that it’s fluid, you know – you love who you love. Women and men are so different in so many ways that it makes sense that one could be attracted to both. Although I can’t imagine such a thing, there is a small possibility that I might be with a man again one day. Actually, no, that’s crazy talk. Anyway, I know bisexual girls get a bad rap – and I totally understand why. So, in the interest of full disclosure, I’m gonna tell you why.
Here it is: Women who say they are “bi” are almost always (actually, “almost” is generous, because it my experience, it’s ALL) married to or in a relationship with a man, and seeing a woman on the side, or they casually date or have sexual relationships with women, but in the end they marry or have their long-term relationships with men. That being the case, their relationships with women are reduced to only sexual, rather than emotional AND sexual. It’s almost as though they want to have fun with girls, but when it’s time to grow up and have a family, it’s back to the men. For this very reason, most lesbians I know hesitate to date bisexual girls.
And that’s that. I don’t identify as bisexual and I’ve never dated anyone who did, so I don’t have any personal experience with it. Sure, I see men who I think are attractive, but I am not attracted to them sexually.
[Disclaimer: HOWEVER, I will totally kiss Jon Stewart or Gavin Rossdale.]
So, I say live and let live. Or love. Or whatever. I love my bisexual girl friends, I just don’t want a bisexual girlfriend.
kadinsky
Okay, I’m jumping back in here because the peen thing needs to be addressed. I see the same issue being repeated, that being that bi-women always seem to end up with men – I’m just going to put this out here.
In my experience (and those of some friends), it’s a lot easier to ask your man if you could sleep with another woman, than it is to ask your woman if she’d let you sleep with a man.
xoxo
– k
ButtercupPunch - "La clique, c’est chic!" 
November 14, 2008 at 9:50 am
All right, which one of posted this on CL?
Your Personal Oral Trainer:
Do you have an itch that needs frequent scratching? My 90 minute oral workout is guaranteed to release all that tension between your legs. I’ll come over as often as necessary and work on any part of your body that requires attention. No request will be refused and when I’m done the tension will be gone and you’ll feel great. Available weekday mornings & afternoons at your place in Manhattan.
November 14, 2008 at 11:08 am
Must. Get. Phoebe. Song. Out. Of. My. Head.
Thanks for the insights, ladies. This is a really interesting topic. Like BAngieB, I think it’s pretty fluid, although it seems like I run into a lot more bisexual women then men. Allegedly, women in general have a more fluid sexuality. Maybe it’s just more acceptable for women to call themselves bi?
Although maybe not. My gay buddy has declared he likes to make out with women sometimes, but still feels about 90-something percent gay. I think there can be a spectrum, but where you are on that spectrum can vary wildly from moment to moment.
As for me? There have been times when I was so enamored with a female that I wished I could have sexual inclinations toward her. But I just don’t. Sometimes I feel like a woman would treat me better than a man, but I know that’s not necessarily true, and I just say that out of my hatred for men, even though I still want to have sex with men.
November 14, 2008 at 11:37 am
Oh hai. I are straight.
As a woman who has only experienced sex with another woman as part of a threesome, I am glad I was able to do that…it’s a good experience to have.
But most of my fantasies involving other women also involve a man. I’m pretty sure this qualifies me as straight.
At least, from what you all are writing and saying, you know, being bi or lezzie would incline me towards having a relationship with a woman. Which I’m open to, but it hasn’t happened yet.
So help me out here–I think what scares me away from a relationship with a woman is that most of the bi women I am attracted to–lipstick types–are sort of emotional rollercoasters. I am attracted to the ‘rocklike calm’ that men typically bring to a relationship.
Is this simply due to my limited experience? Or do tomboy/dykes tend toward more traditionally masculine gender traits such as this?
Please, I am asking out of ignorance here because my scope has been limited. Also, in my experience, the lezzies did not want to talk to me because I liked the cock. So I had no one to ask, such as.
November 14, 2008 at 11:40 am
I love those cartoons – hilare!
@BAngieB: uh, that ad is tempting me. Don’t Judge!
November 14, 2008 at 11:43 am
I think, regarding bisexual ladies…the ads on craigslist are usually just women who are straight and curious and wanting to experiment. Women who identify as bi, that end up with men, I think it is because of the things already said in the post, and also (from what I’ve heard) that they are attracted physically to women, but could not “deal” with a woman in a relationship, which goes back to the whole emotional vs physical thing. It’s a very diverse territory i think, being bi.
November 14, 2008 at 11:51 am
I just have to say how strange it is to read this stuff while simultaneously correcting book reports and explaining economic principles to my students.
I’m usually live and let live about this stuff. My eldest stepsis identifies as bi even though I’ve never heard of her being in any type of lasting relationship with a woman.
I wonder, I’ve seen a lot of LGBTQ floating out there lately. Where, if at all, does queer factor into this?
November 14, 2008 at 12:28 pm
@ForeverBlueGirl: “Is this simply due to my limited experience? Or do tomboy/dykes tend toward more traditionally masculine gender traits such as this?”
I completely understand what you’re saying, I also do not care for overly emo types whether they be male or female. So for me, I was always looking for lipstick femmes with tomboy tendencies. Kindof a posh but sporty dyke.
November 14, 2008 at 12:45 pm
ForeverBlueGirl: Mmmmmm…tomboys. It my experience they do tend to have some more traditionally masculine gender traits, but they still have feminine sensibilities. It’s hard to explain.
Kadinsky: That ad better not have been placed by AYL, or there’s gonna be trouble in River City.
November 14, 2008 at 1:02 pm
Still reading through comments, but M brought up another good point when we were discussing on Wednesday night:
Wouldn’t bisexual women who end up long-term with other women just call themselves lesbians?
CASE STUDY! CASE STUDY!
November 14, 2008 at 1:03 pm
THIS!!!!
“Every bi woman I’ve ever known (this is not counting lesbians who identify as bi when they first come out) has ended up with a dude. Now, I don’t think this means they were straight or even ARE straight. Their attraction to women is alive, and maybe they aren’t even MORE attracted to men. But bottom line is, there are more straight men out there than gay women. I am not into dudes at all, and I hear y’all bitching about the number of quality of men out there. Yeah, lesbians are higher quality (;-)), but we are much, much fewer. It’s basic probability — if you can fall in love with men and women, you’re more likely to end up with a guy”
and THIS!!!
“We get rejected by lesbians because we don’t fit their ethics and most men view us as a mechanism for their own sexual gratification, completely ignoring all other aspects of the equation. Lesbians will reject the notion of dating a bisexual woman because we are seen as vacillaters who just can’t make up their minds and are bound to break your heart, when in fact there is every reason to pursue a relationship with a bi woman if you found yourself attracted to her qualities to begin with. Men almost never take us seriously, and once it sinks in that you really are equally attracted to your own gender as well as his, you are automatically labeled a cheater, a whore, a freak and a liar. Enter the Craigslist contingent.”
And THIS!!!
“In my experience (and those of some friends), it’s a lot easier to ask your man if you could sleep with another woman, than it is to ask your woman if she’d let you sleep with a man.”
That’s all I have to say right now. I must think about that.
November 14, 2008 at 1:04 pm
@ForeverBlueGirl: I’ve met dozens and dozens of women who are very anti-drama and ooze the “rock-like calm” you speak of! True story!
November 14, 2008 at 1:06 pm
SBJ–YES! Because of a resistance to bi women in the lesbian community, I would imagine that there are some women out there who are sexually attracted to both men and women who identify as lesbians because it’s easier to in their community, and in society in general. I don’t know how it is for men, but I’d imagine that it’s similar.
November 14, 2008 at 1:07 pm
@Kadinsky–I think I’m just a big ol’ slut, because I am attracted to all sorts of people, whether they are male or female or butch or femme or in between.
November 14, 2008 at 1:09 pm
@haguenite: HA. i always wondered what my middle school teacher were doing behind their desks on their computers. now i know!
ughh so much of this is so unfair. i think lesbians need to let up on the bisexual mistrust. i back what i said again, sexuality is complex, so back off. within the LGTQI group we face so many unwanted and unfair stereotypes, that to put the B, the bisexuals, on another level of that from within our community, i think, is just bullshit. it’s just as unfair to say that all bi women end up with men as it is to say that all lesbian women are man haters. not the best example, but, you know? it’s gross. granted, i am not a bisexual, i am a lesbian, and i have never been hurt by a bisexual woman, but i’ve been hurt by a male before, but that doesn’t mean i’m going to stereotype them all into a tiny box that says “all males treat their girlfriends badly” because that’s not fair and it’s not true.
and, besides, sexuality is so fluid, as BangieB said, that if you try to package it up nicely in a stereotype box, it’s going to seep right out. so stop.
November 14, 2008 at 1:11 pm
@haguenite: That’s an interesting question. I’m not a real big label Nazi, so I suppose to me queer encompasses any and all variations of sexual orientation that are too wily to nail down, and are at least in some way partially same-sex.
November 14, 2008 at 1:13 pm
@bangieb: i didn’t do it, i swear!! but, however, if you want 90 minutes, you got it.
@skinny: no because just because they are in a long-term relationship with a female doesn’t mean they aren’t still sexually attracted to males…unless like Truculent said, they would do that just so the lesbians would go easier on them. once again, LGBTQI gang, settle the fuck down.
November 14, 2008 at 1:18 pm
AYL–Thank you. I actually even hate using the term bisexual because it’s taken on such yucky implications. I think that the term “pansexual” is the closest thing I can think of, and I really, really, REALLY hate that term because it’s hippy-dippy and flaky and kind of pretentious sounding. I use queer, but I get weird looks from people when I do, since I’m a femme girl who is married to a (mostly butch) boy.
November 14, 2008 at 1:21 pm
@truculent: to your queer, i raise my beer. fuck them all.
and pansexual…can i get icing on that?
November 14, 2008 at 1:23 pm
@AYL, re: “i am not a bisexual, i am a lesbian, and i have never been hurt by a bisexual woman, but i’ve been hurt by a male before, but that doesn’t mean i’m going to stereotype them all into a tiny box that says “all males treat their girlfriends badly” because that’s not fair and it’s not true.”
You’re right on, but both straight women and non-straight women are very much aware of the fact that the majority of males fall miserably short of meeting the standards of women, generally speaking. Even the good guys, for the most part, are good guys because they consistently manage to keep up the bare minimum. The exceptional ones are, by definition, exceptions.
Similar parallels can be drawn with bisexual women.
It might not be accurate or fair to judge all men as inferior or insensitive. It might not be accurate or fair to judge all bi women as reckless liars who use women when their old standby (peen) dulls in luster or only meets half their needs.
But it’s impossible to deny that both straight women (with regard to men) and gay women (with regard to bisexual women) have similar, consistent learned experiences.
How on earth do you manage to give all parties named the benefit of the doubt? The best anyone can do, I guess, is make informed choices.
November 14, 2008 at 1:27 pm
Also, I think we need to address this idea that a person who identifies as bi is just “actually straight” or “is really gay and hasn’t come out yet,” not just from the perspective that that attitude marginalizes bi people’s experiences, but also from the perspective that it’s odd to talk about how a person is “really” one thing or another.
To make a somewhat clumsy comparison, the traditional narrative for transpeople is supposed to be “I was born into the wrong body and I’m going to transition into the right body and become who I ‘really’ am.” For a lot of people, that is the experience, but for some people, it’s not. It’s odd to me that our identities grow and change throughout our lives, but our genders and sexualities are supposed to be static. I realize that this is mostly because gender and sexuality are tied to biology, but the fact is that understanding of our identities and our “true selves” is not.
I guess what I’m saying is that people change and I’m not going to say who is a “real” bisexual or a “real” man or whatever and who is not, and even if they change down the road, that doesn’t invalidate their identities that they had before.
That said, girls who identify as bi and break lesbians’ hearts piss me off, and nobody should use another person to help figure out “who they are.” That’s just shitty, period.
November 14, 2008 at 1:28 pm
@truculentandunreliable: Aw, I think queer suits you just fine, sugar!
November 14, 2008 at 1:29 pm
AYL–Thanks.
You can have frosting AND sprinkles. Yay!
November 14, 2008 at 1:30 pm
Re: “That said, girls who identify as bi and break lesbians’ hearts piss me off, and nobody should use another person to help figure out “who they are.” That’s just shitty, period.”
Exactement! You’re in the minority with the enlightened bisexual bunch, just like there exists a minority of enlightened dudes, buggered that most guys treat women like crap and make ’em all look bad!
November 14, 2008 at 1:34 pm
SBJ–Thanks. :) I think that K can sympathize–it’s a weird position to be in. I feel guilty sometimes because I pass as straight, and I also feel lucky that the person I love is the socially acceptable choice. (Though I also feel lucky that I met someone I love in the first place!).
November 14, 2008 at 1:35 pm
@truculent: right. that’s more of what i was getting at – how it bugs me how other’s can set up and decide what someone else’s sexuality is and that be it. that’s it, wash their hands of the situation and move on. it’s my sexuality and i will say if it is real or not, thank you.
like this jerk i was at a diner with with my friends months back. when he found out i was gay, he said, “nah, you’re just confused, that’s what happens in college.”
crickets.
someone hand me a gun.
and heart break and past experiences to the side, please. take each new person with a clean slate. that’s how i would want to be taken. it’s all ideal communism utopia whatever, but ah, i can dream, right?
November 14, 2008 at 1:38 pm
SBJ–I think that if haven’t really figured out the basics in life yet, you probably shouldn’t be dating anyone seriously anyway. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with women “experimenting” with lesbians as long as they’re honest that that’s all it is. But getting into a relationship and saying “Oh, nevermind! Sorry! I like the peen better” is not cool.
November 14, 2008 at 1:42 pm
“Pansexual”…that makes me think of unicorns.
AYL: Seriously, between the vulgar and inappropriate oral sex offer and the “someone hand me a gun” comment, you are a little extra hot today.
November 14, 2008 at 1:43 pm
@AYL: I almost got a clerk at a grocery store fired when he muttered “What a waste,” as my ex and I left with our groceries.
And I totally lurrrrrrrrrve being told that I am confused, or don’t know what I want, or some prince thinks his magical peen will turn me into a beautiful straight princess once again!
November 14, 2008 at 1:44 pm
AYL–Ugh. Like my grandmother who said that her stepdaughter was a lesbian because she wasn’t very attractive and, thus, hadn’t met the right man yet.
I was like, uhhh, I know some hot-ass lesbians who could get any man they wanted. I don’t think that’s the problem.
Ideally, we would all be completely honest and accepting of each other. I feel like the gap has closed a little, but there’s definitely a long way to go.
November 14, 2008 at 1:46 pm
SBJ–EWWWWWWWWWWWW. The only time I say anything like that is when I see a smart, beautiful girl with a total douchebag, who is most likely someone like that guy.
I actually got that once, but it was because of my tattoo. Whaaaa?
November 14, 2008 at 1:47 pm
@truculentandunreliable: You’re exactly right, and that’s true regardless of SO, though people rarely abide such a common sense approach.
I think it’s just important to be totally honest from the beginning, but the problem bi women have with that is it inherently whittles down the pool of women to choose from. Which is unfortunate. It’s not pleasant by any means, but I can see an honest, well-meaning bi girl getting involved with a woman, agonizing over the fact that it’s a wonderful relationship but that she realizes she wants one with a man instead, and being honest about that. Is it unfair? Yes. Most break-ups are utterly devoid of “fairness.” It is, however, honest.
I guess I’m saying that honesty is truly the best that any of us can do, no matter who we love.
November 14, 2008 at 1:47 pm
@TAU: Ha! Jinx, kitten!
November 14, 2008 at 1:50 pm
@skinny: ahahahhhhhh. someone dick smack me straight, let me see the light! GAG.
November 14, 2008 at 1:54 pm
@skinny(31): truth. i, myself, don’t abide as common sensically (or some word that means that but sounds less drunk) as i’m preaching to. it’s hard, man!
like erasure says, “break these chains of love, don’t give, don’t give up.”
or i can totally go the mister mister route and take these broken wings and learn to fly again. take your pick.
@b: well, then, see you later…do i get extra points for an erasure reference?
November 14, 2008 at 1:59 pm
Erasure references always get extra points. Same goes for Yaz.
November 14, 2008 at 2:02 pm
SBJ–You owe me a Coke.
Yeah, that’s totally true, and the fact is that everybody is going to get their hearts broken no matter what their sexualities. The best that we can do as human beings is to make sure that we are as compassionate and truthful as possible.
November 14, 2008 at 4:02 pm
@truculent– yeah, I was trying to get at the dismissal of legitimate bisexuality in my post. I totally believe in it and I think it’s shitty for anyone to tell anyone else that they’re not REALLY gay straight bi man woman intersex etc.
But… Like skinny said, you can only learn from experience and, in mine, most bi girls chose men in the end. I hear Kadinsky on the male partners more readily allowing sex outside the relationship with women, but as a stereotypical commitment focused lesbian, that’s actually PART of my hesitation when it comes to bi ladies–I don’t want my partner having sex with anyone else, male or female.
@ayl– someone once told me that women ‘turned’ gay because try were hurt by men. I told him that, by his logic, ALL women would be gay, since I don’t know anyone who hasn’t been mistreated, objectified, infantalized, raped, or harassed by a man.
November 14, 2008 at 4:14 pm
AYL: Of course you get points.
SBJ: Erasure gets bonus points, but Yaz gets extra super bonus points.
November 14, 2008 at 4:24 pm
@TAU#20:
nobody should use another person to help figure out “who they are.” That’s just shitty, period.
A-FUCKING-MEN.
I have a rather interesting perspective on this (I think) because I am a straight woman who was, for whatever reason, the last stop on the train to gayville for three different guys I dated in my past–including two who went on to date each other.
Now, I am somewhat more forgiving of these guys, because I can imagine it’s much more difficult to accept yourself as gay in today’s society, but people are people and they have feelings and hearts and they get involved. We are not shoes to try on and take off, to see if you’re a heels girl or a sneakers girl.
Although, for true bisexuals, not just curious/questioning people, I am hearing a lot of allegations that they’ll leave for the sake of being with a man, and I don’t really think I buy that. Relationships end for a variety of reasons and I guess I’d hate to see someone miss out on a relationship because of the hypothetical chance that a person will cheat or dump the other. It’s a chance we all take, and heartbreak always hurts, no matter the gender of the other person.
November 14, 2008 at 4:41 pm
@inchworm–Oh, I totally think it’s your prerogative to be wary of relationships with bi women, and I would never, ever try to convince you that you “should” date a bi woman because we’re so persecuted or whatever, especially since I’ve never had my heart broken by a bi woman. I can totally understand trying to keep your heart safe, you know?
I just have a problem when there is an assumption that all bi women are actually just dabblers who string lesbians along and will go back to the dick one day, or (and I feel that this is almost worse) that they don’t really even exist. You don’t have to fuck me, but please don’t make assumptions about me or erase my identity. (This is a general statement not directed toward you, of course).
I’m sure that there are relationships in which a member of the couple is bi and he/she does not have sex outside the relationship, but I really don’t know how common they actually are, and I can see why one partner being bi might still bring insecurity and friction, even if it is a monogamous relationship.
November 14, 2008 at 4:43 pm
@bangmaster: “Relationships end for a variety of reasons and I guess I’d hate to see someone miss out on a relationship because of the hypothetical chance that a person will cheat or dump the other.”
Word.
This is what I’m getting at, and probably the main reason that the “a bi chick will always end up with a dude” logic makes me so mad.
When you meet someone and things go well and you start contemplating a romantic relationship with them, do you immediately start thinking about all the possible reasons why it might end? No, most people do not because a.) that is impossible to forecast unless you are able to see the future and b.) you are normally happy and excited about the thought of you and this new person being together and you spend your time imagining how wonderful it will be, not wringing your hands over the infinite number of ways that it might all go up in flames. But instead, bi-women get frozen out for a crime they haven’t even committed.
(not YOU of course, I’m saying in general)
@Lesbians: so is it the very thought that a peen might one day be in her sugar walls that makes y’all balk? I mean, you don’t enter every relationship thinking it’s going to be the last one so why must a bi-woman be expected to swear off sausage forever?
November 14, 2008 at 4:46 pm
@bangmaster–Ugh, that fucking sucks. Sorry you had to go through that.
Ultimately, I think that people just shouldn’t be assholes, no matter who they are.
November 14, 2008 at 4:56 pm
Oh, Kadinsky, how I love you.
I’m gonna reiterate my statement before: Every single “bi” woman I have ever met has been in a relationship with a man and dating a woman on the side or between relationships with a man. It is never the other way around. That is what makes us balk.
It has nothing to do with the fact that a peen might one day enter the picture. I mean, come on, I can’t compete with a man. A woman wanting a man instead of me, a woman, would be easier to take. I would be much more jealous of an ex going to another woman, because that would, in my mind, be a reflection on my own inadequacies.
November 14, 2008 at 4:57 pm
@Kadinsky–I think that can carry the implication that there’s no such thing as bisexuality along with it, or that all bi women are secretly straight. I don’t think any of the lesbians who posted here think that’s true, but it does seem sometimes that being bi is somehow associated with being untrustworthy.
November 14, 2008 at 5:02 pm
cont.
It’s just that in my mind, the aforementioned women aren’t going to take a relationship with a woman as seriously as the lesbian in the relationship will.
November 14, 2008 at 5:19 pm
@truculent: untrustworthy – liar – flake – skank – user. I have been called all of these and more by women I’ve either dated, hooked up with or attempted to date (but when I told her I was bi she called me a ‘fucking waste of time’ and threw her cig at me).
@BAngieB: I wish I would have met you when I was 19 because then I could honestly say that my ratio of gf’s to bf’s was exactly even. And then you could play coy while I play hard to get and then I would sit in your lap.
November 14, 2008 at 6:14 pm
@kadinsky
well, it’s been more theory for me than practice… i’ve dated several bi women (and yeah, they have thus far ended up with dudes, but i think that at least one of them might swing back to the ladies one day). i’ve also dated more than one closeted-to-her-family girl when i swore i would never ever ever do it again after the first one.
i think it’s ridiculous to write off attraction and feelings based on whether or not someone has the capacity with men, women, or both. but… i’ve never been dumped. by anyone, let alone a bi girl trading me out for a man. so i have always been way less hesitant than my (mostly older) lesbian pals who have had their hearts ripped out by bi ladies returning to the menfolk.
November 14, 2008 at 6:17 pm
@bangie
word on the more jealous of other women thing. there’s more… comparison there. and while i don’t want my partner sleeping with ANYONE else, i would be way way way way way LESS upset if any of them slept with a guy than with a girl. i’ve actually been open to that situation before, because i understand the need to try things or experiment with someone who is completely different from me, and it doesn’t make me so uncomfortable. but another woman? HELL NO.
November 14, 2008 at 6:18 pm
@kadinsky: That bitch and her despicable behavior toward you needs to DIE IN A MOTHERFUCKING FIRE. Seriously, what’s her name? I want to cut her face. Like right now.
So, an ex of mine had a seriously big chip on her shoulder re: getting burned by “bi” girls, but she habitually preyed on straight/bicurious girls. Like to “flip” them. (Obviously, I didn’t know that when I met her.) WTF? You don’t go after straight girls hoping to make them gay and then get all bitter and pissed off forever and ever, amen, when it doesn’t work out every time. Fucking retarded!
I also totally had a bisexual boyfriend at one point. He was the biggest PUSSY ever, though. He made me miserable and whined and promised things of his own free will that he later took back. Finally, I told him to go fuck whoever but to:
A. Tell me first.
B. Be safe. Duh.
That’s all. Those were my only “rules.” Don’t fucking blindside me and don’t fucking give me STDs. Kthxbai.
After all that – because trust, I was YOUNG and a complete restructure of what I was led to believe would be a monogamous relationship was not easy – he was too chickenshit to actually go out and fuck a guy. I was like, “Seriously? ALL THAT drama and bullshit and you don’t even have the balls to go through with it? You’re fucking DUMB.”
Then, he STILL wanted to be all emo and long-suffering over it. I was like, “Dude, I gave you a free pass and you didn’t take it. I don’t want to hear your self-pitying bullshit. DIAF.” Not long after I moved on, partly due to all the useless bi drama and mostly because he was very needy and made me miserable.
Still, it was a valuable experience in terms of self. You really learn a lot about who you are exactly when facing core issues and values like monogamy, loving non-monogamy, whether or not your ego can transcend everything that comes with bisexuality or an open relationship, how much “love” is defined by any and all of those things, etc. It shines light into your most vulnerable insecurities, which either shrivel up and die or show you what your deal breakers are, and why.
After that relationship ended, it still took me a couple of years to fully discover that I was a lesbian. It was because of that ex-boyfriend that I was extra-cautious, not wanting in any way to “experiment” on a human being, or to accidentally hurt someone or mindfuck them, intentionally or not.
Was waiting hard? ZOMG YES, YES IT WAS. But I wanted a clear conscience, and neither peen nor pussy was worth compromising that, so I toughed it out until I was sure I was gay all the way.
November 14, 2008 at 6:31 pm
@skinny: like a house flipper!
November 14, 2008 at 6:39 pm
@AYL: Exactly. You’re not always gonna win, man!
November 14, 2008 at 6:40 pm
@inchworm: Yeah, thanks for getting what I’m saying.
@SBJ: “gay all the way” FTW
@Kadinsky: See, now, when you were 19, I was single. But now, I have the lovely and talented AYL, and you, of course, have MR. K.
November 14, 2008 at 7:02 pm
I often tease my bi homegirl that she’s just effin’ greedy. I’m glad there’s some confirmation of this.
But bottom line is, there are more straight men out there than gay women.
Err… really? Where? Do you know some? Can you introduce me? Do they date sistas?
@SBJ: I know chick like this and it’s grinds my grit. I tell her she’s no better than men who play mind games on insecure women. but does she listen?
Interestingly enough, I know a few women who have left their dudes for a woman and not looked back. but only time will tell, I suppose.
November 14, 2008 at 7:18 pm
I agree with BAngieB and I stand by what I said. I don’t know a single woman who identified as bi that is in a lifelong relationship with a man.
I’d love to hear what some of you that identify as bi have to say as to why you ended up with a man vs. a woman. I’m very curious.
November 14, 2008 at 7:19 pm
Sorry, that second sentence should read “lifelong relationship with a woman”.
November 14, 2008 at 7:35 pm
I decided to marry Mr.K because he’s the only person I have ever felt truly comfortable with. That safety allows me to be myself, to be able to finally relax. He knows everything about my past, all my crimes (figuratively and literally), all my drama, everything. And he doesn’t judge me for it. I have never dated a woman who didn’t have wildly unpredictable but almost always irrational reactions to things in my past. I guess I was never able to move past that stage and be able to fully trust her.
November 14, 2008 at 9:11 pm
I am all confused. My head is spinning round and round.
All I know is this: I prefer lesbian porn and some of my sexual fantasies involve women. Eva Mendes, for example.
And yet in real life, I have never met a woman I have seriously wanted to have sex with. And I have met a lot of beautiful, sexy women. And also — I have only ever truly deeply passionately loved a man.
Does something shut down in real life, or what? Am I a lesbian afraid to come out? Or am I just purely straight and every straight woman gets turned on by lesbian porn. That’s what I’ve heard.
Oh and one other thing: Kadinsky, you greedy minx.
November 14, 2008 at 9:42 pm
see, this is weird.
i have never identified myself as bi even though i am into girls also, my reasoning is that
1. no one takes it seriously
2. i only ever hooked up with one girl so i feel like that doesnt even count. it was in college, the first couple of weeks of my freshman year. i was very excited. i thought i had a girlfriend (hey! i was young and naive) and then she started going out with some dude.
3. ive only had long term relationships with dudes.
so yeah. i dunno where to even meet girls and i certainly have no gaydar so i guess thats that.
i think i had a point to make, but now i dont remember what it was.
November 14, 2008 at 10:16 pm
What’s important to me is that a woman who is with me is a lesbian when she’s with me because she’s with me. I agree with the fluidity thing and spectrum. What she does when I’m not around is not under my control so what does it matter if she’s doing it with another woman or not? It’s equally hurtful or non-consequential. I guess the connection and character is someone is really what’s up.
I should note though, that I find most men annoying and ugly and that might make me question a woman’s tastes.
November 15, 2008 at 1:15 am
David Walliams from Little Britain has said he thinks that he and everybody else is about 30% gay. I am a gold star hetero but like Trixie, get turned on by lesbian porn and have a little curiosity but have never acted on it (I HATE the current lesbianism-for-boys trend. Thing is, I relate to D.W’s comment and figure most people are the same.
November 15, 2008 at 4:32 am
I was going to write this big long thing but got a bit freaked out by how much personal and somewhat identifiable information I was leaving. So, um, hi, I’m queer, and recently got out of my first relationship with (first time being with, actually) a straight, non-trans dude, and my internalized biphobia pretty much made me uncomfortable the whole time we were together. I don’t know if I can see myself being with a guy in the long run, but I still hate the bullshit “crisis of queerness” insecurity I was feeling. The funny thing is that all my queer friends were totally supportive – I was the one with the problem.
I don’t call myself bisexual in part because not all the people I’ve been with/have crushed on identify as either/or one of two genders, but I think the biggest reason is that I’m too chicken to deal with the stigma and judgement.
When it comes to stigma, I kind of think that gender expression has a lot to do with it. From what I’ve seen, really feminine bisexual women are the quickest to be dismissed as not serious, whereas if a butch or boyish woman is bisexual, it’s more likely to be perceived as this cool, edgy thing because it’s “actually so gay”.
November 15, 2008 at 9:41 am
This is pretty frustrating to me. I identify as bisexual, but I am attracted to women a hell of a lot more (think 85/15 if I’m being generous to the dudes). I hate that I feel unwelcome everywhere: lesbians think I’m going to run off with a man, and most straight people don’t consider it a legitimate identity either, including my parents.
It would be so much easier to call myself a lesbian. I see myself as primarily having relationships with women in the future, and if I ever settle down (yikes! let me finish my program first) it will be with a woman. But calling myself a lesbian feels like lying to myself.
I hate that I’m so worked up about this! I was a late bloomer and spent a lot of high school denying my attraction to women and crying myself to sleep, and after I took my sexuality as a matter of fact that things would be okay. But no, I’m stuck between a rock and a hard place. I hate how bisexuality is perceived, but every once in awhile I find a guy cute and crushable.
If any of you awesome ladies has advice or pearls of wisdom, I’d very much appreciate it.
November 15, 2008 at 11:53 am
Oh, Trixie. I’m calling shananigans.
November 15, 2008 at 11:56 am
@bangieb: boo, remember “binanigans” and “lesbanigans” ?!! oh we had fun that day. “lohanigans.” it never stops!
November 15, 2008 at 11:58 am
@ineffable: those are no reasons to no identify as bi, especially #1. if you’re into male and female, no matter what the experience or what year in college you were in, you can say you’re bi.
November 15, 2008 at 12:02 pm
not*
November 15, 2008 at 12:02 pm
ooooh, speaking of the Freckled One (someone hold BAngieB), I know the Gays want to claim her but I think her peen pass is still valid, yo. Bi all the way.
November 15, 2008 at 12:13 pm
@macho strut: I agree with you that femme bisexuals seem to get the brush off the quickest. Also, thanks for sharing your experience here.
@denna: I understand just how you feel. Sadly I don’t know that I have any good advice to share, as a femme bi I outwardly identify as straight to the masses because it’s easier to get through life and internally I deal with the strife. Do any of your close friends know you are bi? Do you feel comfortable talking about that with them? I count myself very, very fortunate to have found a wonderful and supportive group of friends, many of whom have commented on this thread and who I can share my internal monologue with about this. It helps tremendously.
November 15, 2008 at 12:27 pm
With all due respect, the bi girls seem to keep reinforcing what BAngieB and I have said, that bi girls seem to always end up with a man (with the exception of what denna says.)
As far as community, I think that lesbians can accept bi gals all day long, but in general, we just don’t want to date them.
November 15, 2008 at 12:49 pm
I have to disagree, what we’re saying is that we might decide to choose a long term relationship with a man because our options for doing the same with a woman are so often removed. You all have said it yourselves several times, you don’t even want to date us.
November 15, 2008 at 1:12 pm
@Kadinsky: We’ll have to agree to disagree. And I *have* dated bi gals. Who ended up with men.
November 15, 2008 at 1:12 pm
why did the bi girl cross the road?
to get to the other side!
November 15, 2008 at 1:14 pm
Oh,y’all. Which came first? The lesbian who wouldn’t date a bi girl because she left her for a man, or the the bi girl who left a lesbian for a man?
I don’t even know.
What I do know is that I love you both. And that AYL and I are about to go to City Hall in NYC to march for our rights to love, marry, break up with, or just plain ole’ fornicate with whomever we want.
Such as. For the children. And the queers.
And, of course, for my pretty, pretty, girl, who can love whomever she wants, but is smart enough to stick with a tomboy.
November 15, 2008 at 1:17 pm
Of course, AYL, the bi girl had to get off the fence to cross the road.
November 15, 2008 at 1:18 pm
alice pieszecki is bi and has only been in long-term with women! and shutup, alice is a real person, i know she is!
November 15, 2008 at 2:15 pm
lesbo here, i’m going to have to side with the bi’s on this one. I think they are wrongfully maligned. Relationships end for all sorts of reasons, and probably not very many solely due to someone’s “bi-ness.” Tila Tequila is a colossal train wreck, but not because she’s bi. She’s a fickle, shallow, talentless famewhore, and i think we can all agree that there are those types of people in every sexual orientation
November 15, 2008 at 5:14 pm
I followed a link, and here I am. Addressing one million points upthread all at once:
Several people have mentioned that they don’t know any bi chicks who ended up in long-term same-sex relationships. I know quite a few, but here’s the interesting part: no one considers them bi anymore (even if they themselves still do). We’ve talked about it, and the sheer amount of shit they get from the community is worth skirting the subject over–why even try to argue it if they are going to be shot down (“clearly, you aren’t bi if you are still with her”), told that they are in denial (“you aren’t bi, you are a lesbian, get over it”), or lumped in with a group that it’s apparently okay to insult to their faces (“but most bisexuals are greedy whores who are just using women for sex and will leave them for men and security, you know”)?
My personal experience has been that the vast and overwhelming majority of lesbians (including the ones I’ve dated and loved/love) are batshit insane–but I’ve never tried to talk the exceptions out of their sexuality based on their differences from the herd. There’s a good chance it’s my filter here (hey, this bitch is nuts, so I recognize her as a dyke while ignoring the big ol’ gayball quietly eating her lunch over there), and not every lesbian out there. The bi-women who stay with women don’t get noticed, or they get reclassified.
I classify myself, if pressed, as queer, though I know I would qualify as bi to many people. I’ve dated (and in a grand mistake, once married) men, and I’ve dated/am dating women. The men I’ve gone out with are all on the effeminate side of the male spectrum. I do not like heteronormative bio-cock’n’cunt sex (the best physical relationship I ever had with a guy never involved the standard in-out, not a single time). I like to kiss gay men the most, more than women even. I have no restrictions on the physical things I like to do with women, and have deeper emotional relationships with them. I feel the same way about all of this as I did nearly 6 years ago, the last time I was in a relationship with a man.
But guess what? Most everyone considers me a lesbian now. Nothing about *me* has changed–my preferences and desires are intact. But I’ve been in two gay relationships in a row, so now I’m a lesbian. In the last month, I’ve been asked what it’s like realizing I was a dyke later in life (my first girlfriend was in 1992 when I was 18: nothing new realized here). When I knew I was actually a lesbian and not bisexual (no, when did you decide that for me?). When I realized I was no longer attracted to men (still attracted to some, in the same very specific ways).
I think the tremendous demonization of bisexuals leads to a bunch of really unfortunate shit: social support for stereotyping (with no chance to contest it if the silent bi in the room has any hopes of ever dating dyke again), women who are in the 60/40 ballpark declaring their sexuality according to whomever they are at that moment dating to avoid the bi label, and as mentioned in this thread, outright exclusion in the queer community. A close friend of mine (bisexual, but up to that point gold-star for the gay team) was terrified of “coming out” to her dykes when she fell for a dude. She felt like she was having to make a choice between following her heart and keeping her friends. They gave her a tremendous amount of flak, and after that relationship ended and she started dating a woman, everyone just went back to saying she is a lesbian.
Discrimination always rolls downhill, but it’s such a shame when it happens amongst people who are still fighting the same (sexuality as both choice and determiner of character) prejudices.
November 15, 2008 at 8:56 pm
H: Very interesting and thought-provoking comment.
November 16, 2008 at 2:15 am
@H: Facinating to hear about your personal story, thanks for sharing – I feel more informed on the topic. As AYL said also, it it is strange to see something as fliud as sexuality try to be boxed up in a stereotype.
November 16, 2008 at 2:45 am
I will say that this was a frustrating read- fraught with assumption and outright hostility. Many above say things as qualifiers, seemingly to justify their unacceptable statements:
“Perhaps my experience is limited.”
I won’t ask the average age here- I will instead state that we near 7 billion people on the planet, give or take. That answers the question. Your experience is profoundly limited.
I’m queer, a woman. My partner of 4+ years is bisexual, a woman.
My last partner, we were together 3 to 4 years; she is a bisexual woman also. She is in another long term relationship, this time with a woman. They’ve even bought a house. My ex is still a bisexual.
The whole time spent in these relationships, they remained bisexual and I remained 100% queer. They never turned into lesbians and I never wanted them to. They never asked me to become a bisexual, pressured me or assumed I would.
If I fall down a well like little Jimmy and can’t have sex anymore, am I no longer a lesbian? Am I no longer queer?
Why should anyone resign their identity to conform to their current circumstances? What kind of community expects that?
I’d suspect an insecure one.
November 16, 2008 at 5:30 am
Supporting someone’s comment about internalized fear over her dating a man..I also have friends who have identified as bi and have relationships with guys (as of right now) and I found that I don’t give a shit and am as happy discussing their relationships per usual. In my mind however I do feel like relationships with guys as women are easier because of the automatic acceptance from family, the public, etc. There’s no dramatic and anxious ‘talk’ you have to have with people. Also, marriage is always an option as is legal security for children you might want to have. I know bisexuals don’t want to be told their choices aren’t based on anything but love but when someone is ‘easy’ to love it makes a huge difference psychologically.
November 16, 2008 at 11:11 am
@LB: THANK YOU very much for sharing your viewpoint.
November 16, 2008 at 5:57 pm
Okay, I’m sure that it’s been said better somewhere else here, but seriously – if lesbians won’t date bisexual women, then what choice do bisexual women have but to date men? It’s just a self-fulfilling cycle*. I mean, if the Lesbian High Council had issued me a hot girlfriend while I was striking out with other queer women in the depths of my unhappy singledom, I probably never would have even thought of losing my gold-star status by going on a first date with that dude. But they didn’t, so I took the leap and ended up in a relationship with someone to whom I was attracted and who made me happy (until his jerkiness emerged, but that’s another story).
If the choice is maintaining “legitimacy” OR being in a loving relationship, I’m prepared to sacrifice my gay cred. I mean, ultimately someone else’s disapproval isn’t going to be as important to me as my happiness.
*Is that the right way to phrase it? I’m a little hungover.
@lesbiansayswhat: Oh, that’s totally true. Any disapproval I might face from some lesbian circles is just never going to be anywhere near as significant as the homophobia in society in general.
@LB: Thank you for that.
@h: Thank you for the comment, especially this observation: “The bi-women who stay with women don’t get noticed, or they get reclassified.”
November 16, 2008 at 6:00 pm
Good grief, I always get that sad user image. The tortured bisexual, indeed.
November 18, 2008 at 2:57 pm
This thread is probably dead (I am always late, dammit!), but there are a couple of things that I want to say (mostly sycophantic):
@h: Re: bi-women being classified–this is what I was trying to say earlier. I feel like there’s not a lot of space to be bi, especially if you want to be taken seriously. The funny thing is that women who are bi are considered to be “experimenting” or “actually straight,” whereas men who are bi are considered to be closeted gay men. What’s up with that? How does that reflect our views on gender and sexuality? It seems to me that it’s easier for men to navigate between the straight and gay world, but I could be wrong.
I guess a big part of this is that I wish that people would realize that there is some sort of privilege in identifying your sexuality in a form that fits the binary. (This includes straights and gay dudes, too, btw). When you’re a lesbian and dating a woman or attempting to pick up a woman,you’re seen as a lesbian and you don’t have to explain that actually, you’re sometimes attracted to men. But if you’re bi and dating or hitting on a woman, you almost have to come out twice. Furthermore, I know that I have heterosexual privilege and I do not take that lightly, but the trade-off is that I’m at least partly in the closet. I’m certainly not comparing oppressions, because I think that’s bullshit, but I am trying to advocate for a little more understanding.
@macho strut: Re: femme bis–YUP. As I said before, I even have a problem claiming the word “queer” because I am a femme who is married to a man. It makes me feel like an impostor.
Re: “If the choice is maintaining ‘legitimacy’ OR being in a loving relationship, I’m prepared to sacrifice my gay cred. I mean, ultimately someone else’s disapproval isn’t going to be as important to me as my happiness.”
Exactly, and this is the choice that everyone who is LGBTQ has to make in some way or another–disapproval in exchange for happiness. It was a much, much easier choice for me, which is part of the reason why I don’t really push the bi issue in the first place–I feel like it’s important to me to acknowledge the fact that lesbians have a much more difficult time operating in society as a whole than I ever, ever will. I can understand lesbians’ arguments against dating bi women, and that is totally their choice and I will support it. However, I won’t stop advocating the fact that my identity and the identities of other bi women are legitimate and that bisexuality *is* a sexual orientation.
November 18, 2008 at 3:08 pm
Jesus, T&U, talkative much?
November 20, 2008 at 12:53 am
@t&u: i’m still here! good closing.
November 20, 2008 at 2:56 am
It was a fantastic closing! I think overall this was an awesome conversation. I, at least, learned a lot from it, and I’m glad that people just came balls-out and told their stories and said how they feel.
December 2, 2008 at 1:27 pm
Being left or cheated on by anyone hurts, but every relationship has these risk.
Honesty, respecting each other’s limits and being true to yourself is what forms the lasting bonds not sexual identity labels.
In other words accepting each other for who you are.